Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[JehovahsWitness]

I’d like it if we could discuss the actual Scriptures themselves, and not translations.

...I have a copy of the Kingdom Interlinear, ... I see the NWT has added the word “other” What is your opinion of the NWT [New World Translation] adding “other” to the word of God? ...My second question is this. How is firstborn defined in standard academic Greek lexicons?

I agree. The word “thing” is not in the original language, The KI has it in brackets, and they use it in their English translation as all translations do to make the verse more understandable.

The quotes JW provided all speak of a literal, word for word translation. Translating Jesus was “a god” would be acceptable in a literal translation, but the The NWT is not a word for word translation, therefore, there is no consistency.

There are two methods used in translating Bibles: formal-equivalence and dynamic-equivalence.

I don’t really want to spend time discussing the validity of translations.

How convenient. May I suggest if you do not wish to discuss trnslations you stop raising translational issues and stop talking about translations (including the New World Translation).

Jehovahs Witnesses are not a translation bound religion and are happy to use any respectable translation to discuss divine truths. If you you want to challenge Jehovah's Witnesses as to the validity of their translational choices, feel free ; but if you think you will have an easy ride, you might like to fasten your seatbelt, because that is destined to be a bumpy ride!



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #91]

Sorry JW. I simply don’t have the time to respond to three and now four JW’s, especially since the posts are long. Since you were the one who initially brought up Proverbs 8, I would like to discuss it with you. If you’d prefer not to, I understand. As much as I’d like to sit all day and have forum discussions, I do have a life that demands my time. I’d really like to stick to the topic of the thread. If you’re not interested, that’s fine, maybe one of the other three would like to discuss Proverbs 8. Let me know. Thanks,

Katie

PS. You left me no choice when you posted the Colossians 1 passage. I had to point out how the NWT added the word “other” four time because the translators were concerned that people might believe Jesus was not created. I posted their explanation, which you never commented on.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #91]

Sorry JW. I simply don’t have the time to respond to three and now four JW’s, especially since the posts are long.

This is a public debating forum; anyone can respond to any post. If you raise an issue that others find intersting you can expect any number of responses. Nobody obliges you to respond and you owe an explanation to nobody. If you do not wish to respond then don't.

I’d like it if we could discuss the actual Scriptures themselves, and not translations.

I take it this will be your last post about translations, since you do not wish to talk about translations. If I, or anyone else have something we wish to add about translating however, expect to see it posted. Feel free to ignore any posts that deal with topics you have no wish to discuss (such as translating)

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #93]
People were nice enough to respond. The Christian thing for me to do was to explain why I wouldn’t be posting back to them. Maybe we think different when it comes to the way we treat others. I know I’m not obliged to respond to anyone, but I like to treat people the way I would have them treat me. They call it the golden rule.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #93]
People were nice enough to respond. The Christian thing for me to do was to explain why I wouldn’t be posting back to them. ...

Good for you.

...I believe we need to look at the actual Hebrew or Greek words in their context to truly know what is being said.

I’d like it if we could discuss the actual Scriptures themselves, and not translations.

Duly noted.

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

JESUS , , THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED and ... BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #87]

I’m sorry Tammy, but I don’t have time to be debating with three JW’s at the same time. Your post is very long, and much more than I can do justice to. I appreciate the time you put into your post, but believe it or not, I do have a life outside this forum. I hope you understand. I simply don’t have time to respond.

Have a blessed evening.

No need to apologize (please note that I am not a JW though). You can respond or not as you choose, and we all have lives outside of this forum. Perhaps there is something in my post that you will find helpful just to read. If not you, then perhaps another reader will find something helpful.

Peace again.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to tam in post #96]
Thank you for your kindness and understanding! Honestly, i only read a few lines of your post and just assumed you were a JW. I will go back later tonight or in the morning and read it. May I ask what denomination you worship with?

[tam]

Peace to you and you are most welcome.

[Replying to tam in post #96]
Thank you for your kindness and understanding! Honestly, i only read a few lines of your post and just assumed you were a JW. I will go back later tonight or in the morning and read it. May I ask what denomination you worship with?

Of course you may ask.

I am not part of any denomination. I worship God in spirit and in truth (and so, in and through His Son).


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

WAS JESUS A CREATED BEING ?

COLOSSIANS 1:15, 16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.
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PROVERBS 8:30, 31
I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

REVELATION 3:14 - English Standard Version

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

MICAH 5:2b NWT
From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.

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[Ross]

I don’t know who your NWT translators were, so I can’t comment about their “higher learning.” Do you know who they were? Can you post their credentials? Please share with me their names so I can research them. It is my understanding that the NWT translators were all JW’s. That’s a cause for concern.

The New World Translation of the Greek Scriptures had one primary translator, Frederick William Franz, who was the chief theologian of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society for many decades. He later became president. The other members of the translation committee according to witness sources within the organization had no Greek or Hebrew learning whatsoever.

Franz was unable when put under test to translate a basic Biblical Hebrew text.

Thanks for posting, Ross. My understanding is that the rest of the group had less knowledge of the Greek than Franz did.

Where did this information come from? The names are not published as to who translated the NWT.

Timothy, perhaps you should study the history of your religion.

In November 1954 there was a court case in Scotland known as the Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C.,

This is part of the transcript with Frederick William Franz, Vice President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society being examined under oath:

(Q): I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew
(A). Yes.
(Q): I think we come to the name Jehovah in the forth verse, don't we, of the second chapter of Genesis
(A). Yes.
(Q): You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
(A): I do not speak Hebrew.
(Q): You do not!
(A). No.
Q): Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
(A): Which?
(Q): That fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis?
(A): You mean here?
(Q). Yes?
(A): No, I won't attempt to do that.
Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.

The nephew of Frederick William Franz, Raymond Franz was a member of the Governing Body at that time and so was aware who was part of the translation committee, though the members were kept secret from the society at large and the public. Raymond Franz was later excommunicated from the movement and wrote a book called Crisis of Conscience. In it he recalled that Frederick Franz had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew. Of the five men involved in the committee, only three had finished high school and only Franz went on to College but only completed two years, dropping out after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. Franz did not have even a basic degree in Greek.

Charles Taze Russell was the earlier founder of the movement, and had compiled most of the religions major doctrine which still stands to this day. In a previous court case in March 1913, Russell was questioned as follows:

Attorney Staunton “Do you know the Greek Alphabet?”
Russell “Oh yes”
Attorney . “Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?”
Russell. “Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them”
Attorney “Would you tell me the names of those on top of page 447 I have got here” (Wescott & Hort Greek NT)
Russell “Well I don’t know”
Attorney “You can’t tell what those letters are,look at them and see if you know?”
Russell. “My way..” [Staunton interrupts]
Attorney “Are you familiar with the Greek language”
Russell. “No”