Trinity

[Ross]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

[Ross]

No one in the Greek speaking language understood Jesus to be THE God.

Actually you're quite wrong. Nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew language is the definite article and the word god used where Jesus is concerned. This is all in your head and is not based on facts.

Pay attention to the words ........There is no definite article when referring to Jesus. In the absence of the definite article it translates that Jesus is not The God.

It is not in my head. It is in the same book of John that I have been addressing, chapter 20:28.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

As you said to me, pay attention to the words:

KAI APEKRITHE HO THOMAS KAI EPEN AUTO HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS MOU

And answered the Thomas and said to him The Lord of me and The God of me

Check this in your Watchtower Wescott and Hort Kingdom Interlinear.

There is the definite article. And there is Jesus called The God. Testified by Thomas and John, acknowledged by Jesus, inspired by God.

[tigger 2]

[Replying to Ross in post #101]

Here are all John's uses of the nominative theos:

There are 51 such uses of theos by John (18 in the Gospel of John, 13 in First John, 20 in Revelation). Here is the list of every theos (nominative case) used by John. If it has the definite article, “art.” has been written after the verse number. If it does not have the definite article, “an.” (for “anarthrous”) has been written before the verse number. If it appears to be applied to Jesus, “Jesus” has been written after the verse number.

an. John 1:1c - - - Jesus
an. Jn 1:18 - - - - Jesus (W and H, Nestle, UBS - [Received Text and Byzantine Text have "Son"])
Jn 3:2 art.
Jn 3:16 art.
Jn 3:17 art.
Jn 3:33 art.
Jn 3:34 art.
Jn 4:24 art.
Jn 6:27 art.
Jn 8:42 art.
an. Jn 8:54 - - -"God of you"
Jn 9:29 art.
Jn 9:31 art.
Jn 11:22 art.
Jn 13:31 art.
Jn 13:32 art. (2 occurrences)
Jn 20:28 art. Jesus (?) "God of me" - see 'My God' study http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... mygod.html


1 John 1:5 art.
1 Jn 3:20 art.
1 Jn 4:8 art.
1 Jn 4:9 art.
1 Jn 4:11 art.
1 Jn 4:12 art.
1 Jn 4:15 art.
1 Jn 4:16 art. (3 occurrences)
1 Jn 5:10 art.
1 Jn 5:11 art.
1 Jn 5:20 art.


Rev. 1:1 art.
Rev. 1:8 art.
Rev. 4:8 art.
Rev. 4:11 art. "the God of us"
Rev. 7:17 art.
Rev. 11:17 art.
Rev. 15:3 art.
Rev. 16:7 art.
Rev. 17:17 art.
Rev. 18:5 art.
Rev. 18:8 art.
Rev. 18:20 art.
Rev. 19:6 art. "the God of us"
Rev. 21:3 art.
an. Rev. 21:7 ---- "God to him" (modified by a dative - "prepositional")
Rev. 21:22 art.
Rev. 22:5 art.
Rev. 22:6 art. "the God of the spirits"
Rev. 22:18 art.
Rev. 22:19 art.

We can see that out of at least 48 uses of theos for the only true God (all those apparently not applied to Jesus), 46 of them have the definite article. And the only two exceptions are, again, "prepositional" (modified by a dative and a genitive).

So, again, John always uses the article with theos in proper examples to denote "God"! And he has used theos without the article to denote the Son (John 1:1, John 1:18) - 'a god.'

Nouns used as subjects or predicate nouns (i.e. the nominative case), if they are part of a possessive or prepositional phrase (e.g. "the God of me," "the God of Israel," etc., meaning "my God," "Israel's God," etc.), may or may not take the article. The use of the article under those conditions appears to be purely arbitrary and is used at random with little or no significance. A good example of this is found at 2 Cor. 4:4 - "the god OF this age [or system]...".

[Ross]

I rest my case.

[2timothy316]

No one in the Greek speaking language understood Jesus to be THE God.

Actually you're quite wrong. Nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew language is the definite article and the word god used where Jesus is concerned. This is all in your head and is not based on facts.

Pay attention to the words ........There is no definite article when referring to Jesus. In the absence of the definite article it translates that Jesus is not The God.

It is not in my head. It is in the same book of John that I have been addressing, chapter 20:28.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

As you said to me, pay attention to the words:

KAI APEKRITHE HO THOMAS KAI EPEN AUTO HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS MOU

And answered the Thomas and said to him The Lord of me and The God of me

Check this in your Watchtower Wescott and Hort Kingdom Interlinear.

There is the definite article. And there is Jesus called The God. Testified by Thomas and John, acknowledged by Jesus, inspired by God.

Just because this is what Thomas said that doesn't mean that both titles were directed at Jesus. Lord was certainly directed at Jesus but you have no proof that My God was directed at Jesus. This too is in your head.

[Ross]

No one in the Greek speaking language understood Jesus to be THE God.

Actually you're quite wrong. Nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew language is the definite article and the word god used where Jesus is concerned. This is all in your head and is not based on facts.

Pay attention to the words ........There is no definite article when referring to Jesus. In the absence of the definite article it translates that Jesus is not The God.

It is not in my head. It is in the same book of John that I have been addressing, chapter 20:28.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

As you said to me, pay attention to the words:

KAI APEKRITHE HO THOMAS KAI EPEN AUTO HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS MOU

And answered the Thomas and said to him The Lord of me and The God of me

Check this in your Watchtower Wescott and Hort Kingdom Interlinear.

There is the definite article. And there is Jesus called The God. Testified by Thomas and John, acknowledged by Jesus, inspired by God.

Just because this is what Thomas said that doesn't mean that both titles were directed at Jesus. Lord was certainly directed at Jesus but you have no proof that My God was directed at Jesus. This too is in your head.

Oh my goodness! You people read too many Watchtower comics.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

[2timothy316]

No one in the Greek speaking language understood Jesus to be THE God.

Actually you're quite wrong. Nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew language is the definite article and the word god used where Jesus is concerned. This is all in your head and is not based on facts.

Pay attention to the words ........There is no definite article when referring to Jesus. In the absence of the definite article it translates that Jesus is not The God.

It is not in my head. It is in the same book of John that I have been addressing, chapter 20:28.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

As you said to me, pay attention to the words:

KAI APEKRITHE HO THOMAS KAI EPEN AUTO HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS MOU

And answered the Thomas and said to him The Lord of me and The God of me

Check this in your Watchtower Wescott and Hort Kingdom Interlinear.

There is the definite article. And there is Jesus called The God. Testified by Thomas and John, acknowledged by Jesus, inspired by God.

Just because this is what Thomas said that doesn't mean that both titles were directed at Jesus. Lord was certainly directed at Jesus but you have no proof that My God was directed at Jesus. This too is in your head.

Oh my goodness! You people read too many Watchtower comics.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

And your drink into too much of what false religion hands out. That still don't mean that Jesus is God Almighty. If a friend of mine came back to life and I say to them, "Oh my God, you're alive!" That doesn't mean my friend is God.

BTW here something NOT from a watchtower.
“In John 20:28 Ho kýrios mou kai ho theós mou [that is, My Lord and my God], it is to be noted that a substantive [like God] in the Nominative case used in a vocative sense [in address to Jesus] and followed by a possessive [of me] could not be anarthrous [that is, without the definite article the] . . . ; the article [the] before theós may, therefore, not be significant. . . . the use of the article [the] with a virtual Vocative (compare John 20:28 referred to above, and 1 Peter 2:18, Colossians 3:18ff.) may also be due to Semitic idiom.”—Pages 116, 117, of An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Professor of Divinity in the University of Cambridge, 1953 edition, England.

Thus when Thomas said The Lord of me and the God of me, it was an idiom. Do you know what that is?
"a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., raining cats and dogs)"

James mostly likely had been acknowledging Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God as recorded at John 12:44-45 and John 14:9. The one who as seen Jesus has also seen the One who sent Jesus, his Father.

[Ross]

If a friend of mine came back to life and I say to them, "Oh my God, you're alive!" That doesn't mean my friend is God.

Thus when Thomas said The Lord of me and the God of me, it was an idiom. Do you know what that is?
"a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., raining cats and dogs)"

I do not value commentaries as though they were some recognized authority in the same way you value Watchtower books. One man's work on Idioms in the NT, probably attempting as many as he thought may be such, to fill his volume. That the second part of the verse was idiom; I consider idiocy.

You are saying that Thomas didn't mean what he said; that John presented the words as some form of a nonsensical riddle that would forever confuse the understanding of his Gospel. You are doing summersaults and diversions, desperately attempting to change a plain and in context statement.

There isn't even a way to wriggle round the translation. In fact the Greek text is so plain that not even the NWT could distort it or find another translation that did, so that they could copy it .

Rather than accepting clear and unambiguous language, you are attempting to twist it to suit your unbiblical beliefs because the text doesn't reconcile to them.

John 1:1 "The Word was God"

John 20:28 "Thomas said to him My Lord and my God"
John 20:29 "Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

John closed his Gospel where he began it.

[2timothy316]

If a friend of mine came back to life and I say to them, "Oh my God, you're alive!" That doesn't mean my friend is God.

Thus when Thomas said The Lord of me and the God of me, it was an idiom. Do you know what that is?
"a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., raining cats and dogs)"

I do not value commentaries as though they were some recognized authority in the same way you value Watchtower books.

I'm not surprised. I doubt it would matter if came from Jesus himself that his not God. I could point several others that have nothing to do with my religion and that wouldn't be enough.

[otseng]

You people read too many Watchtower comics.

And your drink into too much of what false religion hands out.

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[Eloi]

Everyone who studies the Bible carefully realizes that Jesus has a God, even after he was resurrected and ascended into heaven:

Rev. 3:12 The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

Then, logically, Jesus could never be called the God of gods, as Jehovah is. The God of gods have no one to call God over him.

Heb. 6:13 For when God made his promise to Abraham, since he could not swear by anyone greater, he swore by himself ...