The Atonement

[Revelations won]

To all true Christians there is nothing more important to our salvation than "The Atonement of Jesus Christ".

Having said that, is it not therefore extremely important to every individual to understand fully what and how the atonement works for our benefit?

What does the atonement do or does not do?

What is required on our part to receive the full benefits of the atonement?

What and when and by whom did the atonement begin?

Can anyone clearly show all scriptures pertaining to the atonement?

I look forward to hearing your "take" on this most important topic.

Kind regards,
RW

[myth-one.com]

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

II Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It is obvious that both of these verses cannot be true if both references to "heaven" refer to the home of God. Therefore, for both of these verses to be true, Elijah would have to be taken up into the sky by a whirlwind to another part of the earth, and not up to heaven where God resides.

The first verse states that no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus, the Son of Man. No man would include Elijah. Therefore, Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the sky or atmosphere. In addition, if heaven is away from the earth, Second Kings 2:11 is a physical impossibility as translated in the King James Bible! That is, whirlwinds only exist in atmospheres. Whirlwinds cannot occur or travel in the vacuum of space. Therefore, one could not travel through the vacuum of space in a whirlwind to another location. Second Kings 2:11 would be translated better as:

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.

Elijah's mission was completed at that earthly location and his life was in danger as he had angered powerful religious leaders.

So God transported him somewhere else through the atmosphere in a whirlwind.

The problem, once again, has to do with the understanding you are imposing on what Christ (who always spoke in parables) said. You think that when someone speaks in parables that we must still take those words at face value, but parables require interpretation.

It is obviously not Christ speaking in II Kings 2:11.

And in John 3:13 Christ is speaking one sentence which is not within any parable.

So the man Elijah was not taken by a whirlwind into the heaven where God resides.

[myth-one.com]

ed ramos

So, from what I gather, you and John Gill believe that the soul of mankind is eternal which is why he stated that the the death that all men are appointed to die, does not include an eternal death, but a bodily death.

Yeah I believe the soul of man is eternal, but it didnt have a eternal beginning. Yes I dont think that verse in Heb 9:27 refers to eternal death, but I believe other verses with that word death does, like for instance Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Man cannot be mortal and immortal.

But those are the two possible choices.

So guess again.

[Brightfame52]

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

II Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It is obvious that both of these verses cannot be true if both references to "heaven" refer to the home of God. Therefore, for both of these verses to be true, Elijah would have to be taken up into the sky by a whirlwind to another part of the earth, and not up to heaven where God resides.

The first verse states that no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus, the Son of Man. No man would include Elijah. Therefore, Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the sky or atmosphere. In addition, if heaven is away from the earth, Second Kings 2:11 is a physical impossibility as translated in the King James Bible! That is, whirlwinds only exist in atmospheres. Whirlwinds cannot occur or travel in the vacuum of space. Therefore, one could not travel through the vacuum of space in a whirlwind to another location. Second Kings 2:11 would be translated better as:

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.

Elijah's mission was completed at that earthly location and his life was in danger as he had angered powerful religious leaders.

So God transported him somewhere else through the atmosphere in a whirlwind.

The problem, once again, has to do with the understanding you are imposing on what Christ (who always spoke in parables) said. You think that when someone speaks in parables that we must still take those words at face value, but parables require interpretation.

It is obviously not Christ speaking in II Kings 2:11.

And in John 3:13 Christ is speaking one sentence which is not within any parable.

So the man Elijah was not taken by a whirlwind into the heaven where God resides.

John Gill on Jn 3:13
And no man hath ascended into heaven,.... Though Enoch and Elias had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in Deuteronomy 30:12, and which may be illustrated by John 1:18; wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them:

[Eddie Ramos]

ed ramos

So, from what I gather, you and John Gill believe that the soul of mankind is eternal which is why he stated that the the death that all men are appointed to die, does not include an eternal death, but a bodily death.

Yeah I believe the soul of man is eternal, but it didnt have a eternal beginning. Yes I dont think that verse in Heb 9:27 refers to eternal death, but I believe other verses with that word death does, like for instance Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I understand your position. But it seems that because you don't see that the soul of man is in fact not eternal, that you are interpreting Hebrews 9:27 as a physical death. So, I have given you many examples to demonstrate that cannot be referring to a physical death because not all have physically died nor will physically die. And when God appoints something to mankind, there are no exceptions because God is no respector of persons . That is why I quoted Romans 2:11-12 for you. And since everyone has sinned, then everyone has died. This is what it means to be dead in our sins, it's referring first and foremost to our soul. How then did Adam and Eve die the day they sinned? It wasn't physically. And Ezekiel 18:4 testifies to this truth, that the soul which sins (and all have sinned) it will die. So, I hope you just look into these things to see if they are so.

Hebrews 9:27–28 (KJV 1900)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So (meaning, in like manner) Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Here we read that the death that mankind is appointed to die is likened to the death that Christ died to bear the sins of many. So, here is a question you must consider. Did Christ die only in his body, or did he die body and soul? Let's look at the time of the cross first and see what happened to his soul the day he died.

Currently I believe Jesus death was body and soul.

That is correct, he did die body and soul to pay for sins. But he did so in eternity past, not at the cross.

Luke 23:43 (KJV 1900)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, we know that Christ's physical body died, yet in his soul (as well as the thief's soul) he went into paradise, meaning, into his kingdom of heaven. But that's not all the scriptures have to say regarding Christ's death concerning salvation

It could be His soul suffered eternal death before He finally expired, at one point on the Cross He said, Why hast thou forsaken me. Could not that been the moments He experienced soul deaths', even the pains of hell ?

Ps 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

So then it seems that you do believe that the soul can die. I say this based on your comment about Christ's soul suffering eternal death. The reason his soul could not have experienced death at the time of the cross is because he said that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. Now, the heart of the earth isn't a reference for the tomb he was laid in. It was a reference to being in hell (i.e. under the wrath of God). We know this because he compared his coming suffering to that of Jonah's, and when we read Jonah's account, we see that God said that being in the whale's belly was likened to being in hell (under God's wrath).

Jonah 2:2 (KJV 1900)
2 And said,
I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me;
Out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

So, in his demonstration, when did Christ begin to suffer God's wrath upon him? In the garden of Gethsemane. This is when being "in the heart of the earth" began. We have to always remember that Christ always spoke in parables.

Matthew 26:38–39 (KJV 1900)
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

So, the cup of God's wrath was being poured out on Christ stating in the garden, that Thursday night. And even though he stated that his soul was exceeding sorrowful, even unto death, teaches us that when he died at the point of the world's foundation, that he in fact did die, body and soul. But not in the garden, because it wasn't under God's wrath (in hell) for the time specified, the 3 days and 3 nights. It went to heaven on the second day (Friday night) along with the soul of the thief. It therefore must have been another time when Christ, body and soul, was under the wrath of God.

I know, you've been hearing me say over and over that payment for sins did not take place at the cross, but rather from the world's foundation.

Yeah, so far you haven't convinced me of that. Now because God who is the one to be satisfied by the death of His Son is outside of time, He didnt have to wait for the succession of time as we motrals do to count a thing a done deal Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Thats why I also believe in eternal justification of the elect, something I will discuss later. Do you believe that ?

So, when we try and understand Romans 4:17, we can only apply it to that which the Bible allows. And in the context, it is speaking of God's promise to Abraham of his heirs and the quickening of the elect to become the children of God. But this passage, nor context, is making any reference to the payment for sins, which is the focus of your application with this verse. God has given us plenty of information to be able to conclude that God's salvation program (plan) was effectively executed from the foundation of the world. Seeing this brings to harmony all passages we have previously discussed. And yes, justification, once it was done by Christ, is eternal and can never be corrupted.

Proverbs 8:23 (KJV 1900)
23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
Or ever the earth was.

The word "set up" is actually the words, "poured out", just like the drink offerings. And here we are told when Christ was given as an offering, from everlasting, before the world was.

[Eddie Ramos]

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

II Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It is obvious that both of these verses cannot be true if both references to "heaven" refer to the home of God. Therefore, for both of these verses to be true, Elijah would have to be taken up into the sky by a whirlwind to another part of the earth, and not up to heaven where God resides.

The first verse states that no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus, the Son of Man. No man would include Elijah. Therefore, Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the sky or atmosphere. In addition, if heaven is away from the earth, Second Kings 2:11 is a physical impossibility as translated in the King James Bible! That is, whirlwinds only exist in atmospheres. Whirlwinds cannot occur or travel in the vacuum of space. Therefore, one could not travel through the vacuum of space in a whirlwind to another location. Second Kings 2:11 would be translated better as:

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.

Elijah's mission was completed at that earthly location and his life was in danger as he had angered powerful religious leaders.

So God transported him somewhere else through the atmosphere in a whirlwind.

The problem, once again, has to do with the understanding you are imposing on what Christ (who always spoke in parables) said. You think that when someone speaks in parables that we must still take those words at face value, but parables require interpretation.

It is obviously not Christ speaking in II Kings 2:11.

Then you don't understand who Christ truly is. He is the Word of God. He is God Almighty in the flesh and all scripture came from the mouth of God (is God breathed). So, Christ spoke every word in the scriptures, even 2 Kings 2:11. So when the Bible says that Christ did not speak without a parable, then we know that this applies to the whole of the scriptures.

And in John 3:13 Christ is speaking one sentence which is not within any parable.

Again, you are ignoring what Christ said:

Matthew 13:34 (KJV 1900)
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Every word Christ spoke is a parable, and only Christ (the word of God) can explain his parables.

Mark 4:34 (KJV 1900)
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

You should not let your logic interfere with spiritual matters. It will always lead you astray.

So the man Elijah was not taken by a whirlwind into the heaven where God resides.

Your own logic keeps telling you this, not the scriptures. Enoch, Elijah and Moses, all were changed into their immortal bodies, which is how Moses and Elijah could appear and talk with Christ in the mount and be seen by the disciples.

Matthew 17:1–8 (KJV 1900)
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

[Brightfame52]

ed ramos

I understand your position. But it seems that because you don't see that the soul of man is in fact not eternal, that you are interpreting Hebrews 9:27 as a physical death.

You must didn't read correctly, I stated that the soul of man is eternal, that is once created by God and given to a person, from that point its eternal. Like Adam, did Adam have a soul before God created him from the dust ? I dont believe so. But after God blew in him the breath of life, he became a living soul, hence that sould of his is eternal Gen 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

ed I respect you, but please when quoting me, be sure you quote me correctly, many of the false teachers misquote people to gain advantage in a argument, so please be careful there, and me likewise.

That is why I quoted Romans 2:11-12 for you. And since everyone has sinned, then everyone has died. This is what it means to be dead in our sins,

To be dead in our sins ed I believe to be spiritually dead and unregenerate, alienated from the Life of God Eph 2:1,5

That applies to everyone without exception i believe.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

I dont see how these verses apply. They just tell us both jew and gentile will be held accountable for Gods Law, God has no respect of persons.

And since everyone has sinned, then everyone has died.

Well yeah. Rom 5:12

This is what it means to be dead in our sins, it's referring first and foremost to our soul. How then did Adam and Eve die the day they sinned? It wasn't physically. And Ezekiel 18:4 testifies to this truth, that the soul which sins (and all have sinned) it will die. So, I hope you just look into these things to see if they are so.

I have believed this for about 4 decades now. You havent enlightened me with this friend.

[Brightfame52]

ed ramos

So then it seems that you do believe that the soul can die.

Yeah, when the soul is seperated from God, its death, but yet for the non elect that death/separation will be forever and in torment.

You must believe death means annihilation ? I am asking

So then it seems that you do believe that the soul can die. I say this based on your comment about Christ's soul suffering eternal death. The reason his soul could not have experienced death at the time of the cross is because he said that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. Now, the heart of the earth isn't a reference for the tomb he was laid in. It was a reference to being in hell (i.e. under the wrath of God). We know this because he compared his coming suffering to that of Jonah's, and when we read Jonah's account, we see that God said that being in the whale's belly was likened to being in hell (under God's wrath).

Jonah 2:2 (KJV 1900)
2 And said,
I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me;
Out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

So, in his demonstration, when did Christ begin to suffer God's wrath upon him? In the garden of Gethsemane. This is when being "in the heart of the earth" began. We have to always remember that Christ always spoke in parables.

Matthew 26:38–39 (KJV 1900)
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

So, the cup of God's wrath was being poured out on Christ stating in the garden, that Thursday night. And even though he stated that his soul was exceeding sorrowful, even unto death, teaches us that when he died at the point of the world's foundation, that he in fact did die, body and soul. But not in the garden, because it wasn't under God's wrath (in hell) for the time specified, the 3 days and 3 nights. It went to heaven on the second day (Friday night) along with the soul of the thief. It therefore must have been another time when Christ, body and soul, was under the wrath of God.

I believe I see why you believe the way you do, however Im not convinced you are correct. Christ was omnipresent even as the Son of Man so He could have been in two places at once Jn 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus while talking there said that He was also in the heaven, present tense.

So, when we try and understand Romans 4:17, we can only apply it to that which the Bible allows. And in the context, it is speaking of God's promise to Abraham of his heirs and the quickening of the elect to become the children of God. But this passage, nor context, is making any reference to the payment for sins, which is the focus of your application with this verse.

I disagree with that. Things said about God can be applied outside of its context. Many say what you are saying when for instance, in the context of Salvation, Paul writes that God worketh all things according to His will Eph 1:11

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The objectors say, oh no, God isnt sovereign in all things, this scripture is talking about Salvation only. Well yes it is, but its a point that describes who God is, and how He works all things.

Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Some opposers will turn around and say this cant apply to salvation because of its context. Be careful with that type of attitude my friend.

. But this passage, nor context, is making any reference to the payment for sins, which is the focus of your application with this verse

be careful sir, I never said in the context of Rom 4:17 it referred to the payment of sin, but its referencing the Eternal God to whom the payment of sin was made to. And Hes Eternal outside of time ! The Being making the sacrifice is Eternal outside of time !

Proverbs 8:23 (KJV 1900)
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
Or ever the earth was.

The word "set up" is actually the words, "poured out", just like the drink offerings. And here we are told when Christ was given as an offering, from everlasting, before the world was.

I love that verse, the word also means to anoint to install as King so I believe its in reference to His Mediatorial Manhood, whe He became the Mediator between God and Men 1 Tim 2:5 and so His delights were with the sons of men , who I take to be the elect of God given Him before the foundation Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

yet they had not yet been brought into actual physical being !

[myth-one.com]

Then you don't understand who Christ truly is. He is the Word of God. He is God Almighty in the flesh and all scripture came from the mouth of God (is God breathed).

No, Christ was the Word made flesh:

John 1:4
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

God Almighty and the Word cannot die.

Jesus did.

[Eddie Ramos]

Then you don't understand who Christ truly is. He is the Word of God. He is God Almighty in the flesh and all scripture came from the mouth of God (is God breathed).

No, Christ was the Word made flesh:

John 1:4
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

God Almighty and the Word cannot die.

Jesus did.

Like I said, then you don't understand who Christ truly is. That isn't something I can do anything about, though I wish that were not the case.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Acts 20:28 (KJV) 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[myth-one.com]

Then you don't understand who Christ truly is. He is the Word of God. He is God Almighty in the flesh and all scripture came from the mouth of God (is God breathed).

No, Christ was the Word made flesh:

John 1:4
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

God Almighty and the Word cannot die.

Jesus did.

Like I said, then you don't understand who Christ truly is.

But it isn't me that's wrong. John wrote that the Word was made flesh, and God Almighty and the Word are clearly immortal in the Bible which was inspired by God.

So you are saying that John and God got it all wrong.

But Eddie got it correct. Good for you Eddie.