The Atonement

[Revelations won]

To all true Christians there is nothing more important to our salvation than "The Atonement of Jesus Christ".

Having said that, is it not therefore extremely important to every individual to understand fully what and how the atonement works for our benefit?

What does the atonement do or does not do?

What is required on our part to receive the full benefits of the atonement?

What and when and by whom did the atonement begin?

Can anyone clearly show all scriptures pertaining to the atonement?

I look forward to hearing your "take" on this most important topic.

Kind regards,
RW

[myth-one.com]

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

II Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It is obvious that both of these verses cannot be true if both references to "heaven" refer to the home of God. Therefore, for both of these verses to be true, Elijah would have to be taken up into the sky by a whirlwind to another part of the earth, and not up to heaven where God resides.

The first verse states that no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus, the Son of Man. No man would include Elijah. Therefore, Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the sky or atmosphere. In addition, if heaven is away from the earth, Second Kings 2:11 is a physical impossibility as translated in the King James Bible! That is, whirlwinds only exist in atmospheres. Whirlwinds cannot occur or travel in the vacuum of space. Therefore, one could not travel through the vacuum of space in a whirlwind to another location. Second Kings 2:11 would be translated better as:

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.

Elijah's mission was completed at that earthly location and his life was in danger as he had angered powerful religious leaders.

So God transported him somewhere else through the atmosphere in a whirlwind.

The problem, once again, has to do with the understanding you are imposing on what Christ (who always spoke in parables) said. You think that when someone speaks in parables that we must still take those words at face value, but parables require interpretation.

It is obviously not Christ speaking in II Kings 2:11.

And in John 3:13 Christ is speaking one sentence which is not within any parable.

So the man Elijah was not taken by a whirlwind into the heaven where God resides.

[myth-one.com]

ed ramos

So, from what I gather, you and John Gill believe that the soul of mankind is eternal which is why he stated that the the death that all men are appointed to die, does not include an eternal death, but a bodily death.

Yeah I believe the soul of man is eternal, but it didnt have a eternal beginning. Yes I dont think that verse in Heb 9:27 refers to eternal death, but I believe other verses with that word death does, like for instance Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Man cannot be mortal and immortal.

But those are the two possible choices.

So guess again.

[Brightfame52]

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

II Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It is obvious that both of these verses cannot be true if both references to "heaven" refer to the home of God. Therefore, for both of these verses to be true, Elijah would have to be taken up into the sky by a whirlwind to another part of the earth, and not up to heaven where God resides.

The first verse states that no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus, the Son of Man. No man would include Elijah. Therefore, Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the sky or atmosphere. In addition, if heaven is away from the earth, Second Kings 2:11 is a physical impossibility as translated in the King James Bible! That is, whirlwinds only exist in atmospheres. Whirlwinds cannot occur or travel in the vacuum of space. Therefore, one could not travel through the vacuum of space in a whirlwind to another location. Second Kings 2:11 would be translated better as:

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.

Elijah's mission was completed at that earthly location and his life was in danger as he had angered powerful religious leaders.

So God transported him somewhere else through the atmosphere in a whirlwind.

The problem, once again, has to do with the understanding you are imposing on what Christ (who always spoke in parables) said. You think that when someone speaks in parables that we must still take those words at face value, but parables require interpretation.

It is obviously not Christ speaking in II Kings 2:11.

And in John 3:13 Christ is speaking one sentence which is not within any parable.

So the man Elijah was not taken by a whirlwind into the heaven where God resides.

John Gill on Jn 3:13
And no man hath ascended into heaven,.... Though Enoch and Elias had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in Deuteronomy 30:12, and which may be illustrated by John 1:18; wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them:

[Eddie Ramos]

[Eddie Ramos]

[Brightfame52]

ed ramos

I understand your position. But it seems that because you don't see that the soul of man is in fact not eternal, that you are interpreting Hebrews 9:27 as a physical death.

You must didn't read correctly, I stated that the soul of man is eternal, that is once created by God and given to a person, from that point its eternal. Like Adam, did Adam have a soul before God created him from the dust ? I dont believe so. But after God blew in him the breath of life, he became a living soul, hence that sould of his is eternal Gen 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

ed I respect you, but please when quoting me, be sure you quote me correctly, many of the false teachers misquote people to gain advantage in a argument, so please be careful there, and me likewise.

That is why I quoted Romans 2:11-12 for you. And since everyone has sinned, then everyone has died. This is what it means to be dead in our sins,

To be dead in our sins ed I believe to be spiritually dead and unregenerate, alienated from the Life of God Eph 2:1,5

That applies to everyone without exception i believe.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

I dont see how these verses apply. They just tell us both jew and gentile will be held accountable for Gods Law, God has no respect of persons.

And since everyone has sinned, then everyone has died.

Well yeah. Rom 5:12

This is what it means to be dead in our sins, it's referring first and foremost to our soul. How then did Adam and Eve die the day they sinned? It wasn't physically. And Ezekiel 18:4 testifies to this truth, that the soul which sins (and all have sinned) it will die. So, I hope you just look into these things to see if they are so.

I have believed this for about 4 decades now. You havent enlightened me with this friend.

[Brightfame52]

[myth-one.com]

Then you don't understand who Christ truly is. He is the Word of God. He is God Almighty in the flesh and all scripture came from the mouth of God (is God breathed).

No, Christ was the Word made flesh:

John 1:4
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

God Almighty and the Word cannot die.

Jesus did.

[Eddie Ramos]

Then you don't understand who Christ truly is. He is the Word of God. He is God Almighty in the flesh and all scripture came from the mouth of God (is God breathed).

No, Christ was the Word made flesh:

John 1:4
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

God Almighty and the Word cannot die.

Jesus did.

Like I said, then you don't understand who Christ truly is. That isn't something I can do anything about, though I wish that were not the case.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Acts 20:28 (KJV) 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[myth-one.com]

Then you don't understand who Christ truly is. He is the Word of God. He is God Almighty in the flesh and all scripture came from the mouth of God (is God breathed).

No, Christ was the Word made flesh:

John 1:4
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

God Almighty and the Word cannot die.

Jesus did.

Like I said, then you don't understand who Christ truly is.

But it isn't me that's wrong. John wrote that the Word was made flesh, and God Almighty and the Word are clearly immortal in the Bible which was inspired by God.

So you are saying that John and God got it all wrong.

But Eddie got it correct. Good for you Eddie.