The Atonement

[Revelations won]

To all true Christians there is nothing more important to our salvation than "The Atonement of Jesus Christ".

Having said that, is it not therefore extremely important to every individual to understand fully what and how the atonement works for our benefit?

What does the atonement do or does not do?

What is required on our part to receive the full benefits of the atonement?

What and when and by whom did the atonement begin?

Can anyone clearly show all scriptures pertaining to the atonement?

I look forward to hearing your "take" on this most important topic.

Kind regards,
RW

[Brightfame52]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #574]

I have explained things to you. If you cant grasp them, thats not for you to learn.

No, you claimed that "He (Jesus) paid the wages of death for His Sheep."

But you cannot explain why Believers still die daily if Jesus died for our sins -- as you claim.

The man Jesus died -- as every other man or woman will die:

Hebrews 9:27
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If His death was unavoidable because He was born as a man, how does His death save anyone?

Can you name one human believer who has not died their appointed first death because Jesus died for them?

Like I said, I have explained these matters of atonement to you in this thread and you refuse to listen !

[Brightfame52]

eddie ramos said:

It really doesn't matter how many times someone will explain spiritual truths from the Bible when those truths cannot be seen by the recipient. You continue to try and press a point about man's appointment to die once and completely misunderstand (as I have previously tried to explain in other threads) that Hebrews 9:27 is not referring to the physical body, but it's referring to man's soul. This is why you ignore the various biblical texts that declare that Jesus bore the sins of his people as if though no one had showed them to you, or as if though by your logic, those verses don't belong in the Bible. But truth is not arrived at using your method of biblical interpretation. To prove my point (again), I will provide a biblical answer to your last question only to show everyone that you will once again reject it because you hold your logic to a higher regard than the scriptures.

Eddie i do differ from you on the meaning of die in Heb 9:27, I believe it does refer to physical death, yet I agree with your exceptions. I adopt the view that John Gill presents on that verse, observe:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die,.... Not a moral, or what is commonly called a spiritual death, nor an eternal one, but a corporeal one; which does not arise from the constitution of nature, but from the sin of man, and God's decree on account of it; by which it is fixed that men shall die, and how long they shall live, and when they shall die; so that they cannot die sooner nor later; all things antecedent to death, which lead on to it, and issue in it, are appointed by God, and so is death itself, with all its circumstances; men's days can neither be lengthened nor shortened, either by Christ himself, or others: and this statute and appointment of God concerns men, not angels, and reaches to all men, wicked and righteous; and though there have been some exceptions, as Enoch and Elijah; and all will not sleep, or die, some will be found alive at Christ's appearing; yet such will undergo a change which is equivalent to death, as Enoch and Elijah have done: and generally speaking men die but once; it is not usual for men to die, and live again, and then die again; there have been some extraordinary instances of this kind, but they are rare; it is the statute law of heaven in common for men to die and that but once; so Cicero (o) the Heathen says, "omnibus definitam esse mortem": Christ died once, he will die no more; and it is the comfort of the saints, that though they die the first death, they shall not be hurt of the second death; and the consideration of this decree should excite to diligence and industry: death is certain to God, but uncertain to us, as to the time, nor should we curiously inquire into it, but patiently wait for it, and quietly submit unto it:
but after this the judgment; the last and general judgment, which will reach to all men, quick and dead, righteous and wicked, and in which Christ will be Judge. There is a particular judgment which is immediately after death; by virtue of which, the souls of men are condemned to their proper state of happiness or woe; and there is an universal judgment, which will be after the resurrection of the dead, and is called eternal judgment, and to come; this is appointed by God, though the time when is unknown to men; yet nothing is more certain, and it will be a righteous one.

What he writes about an immediate judgment after death sounds interesting as well. So when a believer physically dies, its a rest for them and not a condemning judgement. Besides Paul stated that physical death is the last enemy that will be vanquished at the second coming 1 Cor 15:26

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

[Eddie Ramos]

You continue to try and press a point about man's appointment to die once and completely misunderstand (as I have previously tried to explain in other threads) that Hebrews 9:27 is not referring to the physical body, but it's referring to man's soul.

What is the difference between the physical body and the "soul?"

I have already tried explaining that to you multiple times in various threads, which has resulted in you ignoring my scriptures (as you just did again here with my last reply to your previous question) because you'd rather deal with doctrine according to your logic and because you'd rather be right at any cost, rather than humbling yourself to the scriptures when they contradict you.

But feel free to let me know when you would be willing to start examining each and every passage given to you, and I will be happy to help. You can start with Hebrews 11:5 which contradicts your doctrine.

Genesis 5:23
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

Enoch had no more than 365 years. Is he living breathing now?

And you don't own the scriptures. They are not your scriptures. So when you change the wording of the scriptures, you should have to justify why you did so.

Since you claim that Hebrews 9:27 means that every "soul" is appointed to die -- as opposed to every "man", then you need to define your definition of the word "soul."

Doing so requires less effort that dodging the request.

<===========================>

What is the difference between your physical body and the "soul?"

You're doing it again. You're avoiding a direct confrontation from the scriptures regarding your false claim that every human being has physically died and will physically die.

I have absolutely no problem explaining from the scriptures that mankind has been created with a physically body and a spiritual soul. As a matter of fact, thank you for giving me the idea for my next thread.

But you're only pressing that so as to avoid explaining to everyone here what you do with Hebrews 11:5. Like I told you, it's pointless to jump onto another topic before you address this one about Enoch.

The scriptures weren't written for any of us to pick only what seems to agree with what we want it to say. It was written so that we could search for the truth by seeing how all the verses fit together and then we make correction as necessary.

So, you once again avoided addressing Hebrews 11:5. Instead, you posted Genesis 5:23 and didn't even do your diligence in posting what the next verse said.

Genesis 5:23-24 (KJV) 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him[/b].

So, yes, all the days of Enoch were 365, but what happened after that? You can't just say he died without harmonizing that statement with everything else the Bible has to say about Enoch. And the Bible says that Enoch did not see death. Now this should cause anyone who believes like you do, to reexamine what you believe to be true because the Bible declares that it is certainly not.

This means that since Hebrews 11:5 and Genesis 5:24 says that he did not see death, and that he was changed, and that he was not because God took him, then we can be sure that the phrase "he was not" has nothing to do with death, but it means that he was no longer on earth because God took him.

Enoch is a picture of the true believers who will be caught up on the last day and "not all sleep" (die), but shall be changed from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body.

This will be my final reply to you here unless you directly address Hebrews 11:5. Thanks.

[Brightfame52]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #583]

What about Elijah the Prophet ? I dont believe he ever died physically 2 Kgs 2:11

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

[myth-one.com]

What is the difference between your physical body and the "soul?"

You're doing it again. You're avoiding a direct confrontation from the scriptures regarding your false claim that every human being has physically died and will physically die.

That is not a false claim, but a direct quote from the scriptures:

Hebrews 9:27 (New International Version)
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

You do the same thing you accuse me of doing by ignoring Hebrews 9:27.

I have absolutely no problem explaining from the scriptures that mankind has been created with a physically body and a spiritual soul.

Where do the scriptures state that mankind has a "spiritual soul?"

Actually, mankind has no preeminence above a beast:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Do all of the beasts have souls?

<=============================>

Hebrews 11:5 New International Version
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Enoch's was taken from this life without Him experiencing the process of death. He still died his appointed death. It was simply instant and painless.

Genesis 5:23-24 (KJV) 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him].

So, yes, all the days of Enoch were 365, but what happened after that? You can't just say he died without harmonizing that statement with everything else the Bible has to say about Enoch. And the Bible says that Enoch did not see death. Now this should cause anyone who believes like you do, to reexamine what you believe to be true because the Bible declares that it is certainly not.

After 365 years he was taken from this life.

If he is not in this life, he is dead.

Genesis 5:23-24 New International Version
Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

This means that since Hebrews 11:5 and Genesis 5:24 says that he did not see death, and that he was changed, and that he was not because God took him, then we can be sure that the phrase "he was not" has nothing to do with death, but it means that he was no longer on earth because God took him.

Our place is being prepared presently. When our place is ready, Jesus will return to the earth with it:

John 14:2-3
I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That being the case, where did God take Enoch?

Enoch is a picture of the true believers who will be caught up on the last day and "not all sleep" (die), but shall be changed from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body.

And until that occurs, no human has any known place to live except the good earth.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #583]

What about Elijah the Prophet ? I dont believe he ever died physically 2 Kgs 2:11

John 3:13
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

II Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It is obvious that both of these verses cannot be true if both references to "heaven" refer to the home of God. Therefore, for both of these verses to be true, Elijah would have to be taken up into the sky by a whirlwind to another part of the earth, and not up to heaven where God resides.

The first verse states that no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus, the Son of Man. No man would include Elijah. Therefore, Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the sky or atmosphere. In addition, if heaven is away from the earth, Second Kings 2:11 is a physical impossibility as translated in the King James Bible! That is, whirlwinds only exist in atmospheres. Whirlwinds cannot occur or travel in the vacuum of space. Therefore, one could not travel through the vacuum of space in a whirlwind to another location. Second Kings 2:11 would be translated better as:

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.

Elijah's mission was completed at that earthly location and his life was in danger as he had angered powerful religious leaders.

So God transported him somewhere else through the atmosphere in a whirlwind.

[Eddie Ramos]

Eddie i do differ from you on the meaning of die in Heb 9:27, I believe it does refer to physical death, yet I agree with your exceptions. I adopt the view that John Gill presents on that verse, observe:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die,.... Not a moral, or what is commonly called a spiritual death, nor an eternal one, but a corporeal one; .... and though there have been some exceptions, as Enoch and Elijah; and all will not sleep, or die, some will be found alive at Christ's appearing; yet such will undergo a change which is equivalent to death, as Enoch and Elijah have done: and generally speaking men die but once; .

What he writes about an immediate judgment after death sounds interesting as well. So when a believer physically dies, its a rest for them and not a condemning judgement. Besides Paul stated that physical death is the last enemy that will be vanquished at the second coming 1 Cor 15:26

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So, from what I gather, you and John Gill believe that the soul of mankind is eternal which is why he stated that the the death that all men are appointed to die, does not include an eternal death, but a bodily death. And then he lists what he refers to as "exceptions". Now, I don't know who John Gill is or what else he believes, but it doesn't matter. All that matters is what someone brings to the table to be examined against the scriptures.

Here is the first problem with the view you and John hold (as I once did). First, you are not keeping in mind that the Word of God is a law book. And as a law book, there are no such things as exceptions. This means that what applies to one applies to all.

Romans 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)
For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

So, here is the passage in question, with it's context:

Hebrews 9:27–28 (KJV 1900)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So (meaning, in like manner) Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Here we read that the death that mankind is appointed to die is likened to the death that Christ died to bear the sins of many. So, here is a question you must consider. Did Christ die only in his body, or did he die body and soul? Let's look at the time of the cross first and see what happened to his soul the day he died.

Luke 23:43 (KJV 1900)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, we know that Christ's physical body died, yet in his soul (as well as the thief's soul) he went into paradise, meaning, into his kingdom of heaven. But that's not all the scriptures have to say regarding Christ's death concerning salvation.

Isaiah 53:10 (KJV 1900)
10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
He shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Psalm 16:10 (KJV 1900)
10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hell is a synonym for the grave which equates to death because of the wrath of God. Christ's soul, we read, was made an offering for sin and his soul was in hell (or under the wrath of God). But then, after satisfying the demands of his own law for the wages of sin, Christ rose from the dead, body and soul and was declared to be the son of God because he resurrected from the dead.

Romans 1:4 (KJV 1900)
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by (meaning, through the resurrection from the dead:

I know, you've been hearing me say over and over that payment for sins did not take place at the cross, but rather from the world's foundation. And this is s truth that God has opened up in this time of the end. And no matter what topic we discuss in the Bible, the focus always comes back to this core issue. Christ's soul was not in hell at anytime after his death on the cross because where Christ went, the thief went also. And it was certainly to paradise, meaning the kingdom of heaven. This then means that we still have to account for the time when his soul (which was also made an offering for sin) was in hell. And since it wasn't at the time of the cross, then there is only one other time that the Bible speaks of.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Works are never finished in principle, but in deed. But why is this extremely relevant? Because the soul of man is not immortal.
How can we be sure? Well, we can start at the garden and pay close attention to what God's law stated.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV 1900)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God said, "in the day" that they would disobey, that they would die. But Satan said that they wouldn't die the day they would eat thereof, instead, he said that the day they would eat, that their eyes would be opened and that they would be like God, knowing God and evil.

So, let's see what actually happened when they ate thereof.

Genesis 3:7 (KJV 1900)
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:22 (KJV 1900)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, God said that they would surely die the very day they ate thereof and Satan said three things would take place if they would eat. And as we can see, two of those three things are recorded as in fact taking place. But what about when Satan said that they would not surely die? Was that also true? If it was, then does that mean that what God said, was untrue? Well, we know that Satan is the father of lies and he is a deceiver. We also know that God cannot lie. So, if we walk by sight, we would have no choice to conclude that Satan told the truth because Adam and Eve did not physically die the day they sinned. Adam, we know, lived for 930 years. But, the conclusion here is that God did not specify how they would die, he only said that they would surely die the day they would sin. And die they did. Adam and Eve suffered the worst death imaginable. They suffered a death which cannot be seen, heard nor felt. They suffered the death of their spiritual soul. But is that even possible? According to the Bible, absolutely yes.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

This is what is meant in the Bible by referring to people who are physically alive, as dead.

Luke 9:59–60 (KJV 1900)
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

It is impossible for both the physically dead to bury the physically dead. But because Christ always spoke in parables, we can understand him to mean to let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead. And this was in the context of teaching us that there is nothing more important than the preaching of the gospel.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV 1900)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)

Those whose soul was dead and then born again are said to have been quickened (which means, made alive). How can a physically alive body be made alive? This helps us to see that the appointed death was not referring to the body but to the soul of mankind which had died. Physical death can be escaped, which Enoch and Elijah helped us see. And also, on the last day, God's people who are still physically alive, like Enoch, will not sleep (will not see physical death) but will be changed. Physical death, is also part of the wages of sin, but it's not the appointed death the Bible speaks of. The reason the soul dies immediately upon conception is because mankind, in his sin cursed body and through the natural seed of man, cannot conceive a child without sin, and the wages for sin is death.

So, since man has a dead soul, then salvation is the only hope for that man. When God brings the dead soul back to life. This is what it means to be born again. And as long as the true children of God remain in this physical world, when our physical bodies, which profited nothing from our regeneration, then while they are absent from the body, they are present with the Lord in heaven in their born again soul which was dead, but made alive at some point in their lives.

[Eddie Ramos]

What is the difference between your physical body and the "soul?"

Hebrews 9:27 (New International Version)
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

I have absolutely no problem explaining from the scriptures that mankind has been created with a physically body and a spiritual soul.

Where do the scriptures state that mankind has a "spiritual soul?"

I just answered this in some detail in post #587. Let me know if you need further clarification.

Actually, mankind has no preeminence above a beast:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Do all of the beasts have souls?

No, and if you would have taken an honest look at the information I provided in our other dialogue we had about mankind having been created with 2 distinct "breaths" (of lives), then perhaps you would not be asking again the same questions. One breath relates to our soul as a living spiritual being and the other breath refers to our physical life. This is the breath we share with beasts. That is why when sin entered into the world, all died, but not physically, but spiritually in their soul. Now, the only breath mankind has, is the same breath they share with the beast of the field, their physical breath.

Hebrews 11:5 New International Version
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Enoch's was taken from this life without Him experiencing the process of death. He still died his appointed death. It was simply instant and painless.

You're making it abundantly clear that you don't care about seeking the truth from the scriptures, especially when you attempt to interpret the Bible based on your established doctrine and not based on true harmony. But here is what happens when you continue to reject the truth of the scriptures, you make up some non biblical reasons as to why you must be right, no matter what the Bible declares. Because you can't see that the appointed death is the death of our soul (see post #587), then Hebrews 11:5 will contradict you no matter how you try to spin it. The scriptures say that he did not experience death, and you reason with yourself that he must have because of your understanding of Hebrews 9:27, and then you add another untruth on top of that and say (with no biblical reference) that is was an instant and painless death. All I can do is hope you get serious about your Bible studies and humble yourself before God's Word.

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #583]

What about Elijah the Prophet ? I dont believe he ever died physically 2 Kgs 2:11

John 3:13
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

II Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

It is obvious that both of these verses cannot be true if both references to "heaven" refer to the home of God. Therefore, for both of these verses to be true, Elijah would have to be taken up into the sky by a whirlwind to another part of the earth, and not up to heaven where God resides.

The first verse states that no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus, the Son of Man. No man would include Elijah. Therefore, Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the sky or atmosphere. In addition, if heaven is away from the earth, Second Kings 2:11 is a physical impossibility as translated in the King James Bible! That is, whirlwinds only exist in atmospheres. Whirlwinds cannot occur or travel in the vacuum of space. Therefore, one could not travel through the vacuum of space in a whirlwind to another location. Second Kings 2:11 would be translated better as:

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.

Elijah's mission was completed at that earthly location and his life was in danger as he had angered powerful religious leaders.

So God transported him somewhere else through the atmosphere in a whirlwind.

The problem, once again, has to do with the understanding you are imposing on what Christ (who always spoke in parables) said. You think that when someone speaks in parables that we must still take those words at face value, but parables require interpretation. Instead, we must always ask, what did Christ mean by what he said, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".

The first thing we notice when we look closer, is that the word "man" is not in the original text. The words translated here as, "no man" is one Greek word which is mostly translated as "none, no one, and nothing". This statement now becomes all encompassing and is not limited to mankind. But as we read the Bible, we discover that many have ascended up to heaven.

Genesis 28:12 (KJV 1900)
12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

The word "angels" is also translated as "messengers" and it is used interchangeably to refer to angelic beings as well as to the true children of God. But who is in view here? Well, the context is focusing on God's promise of saving his people. Moreover, we notice what these messengers are doing, they are not descending and ascending, but they are ascending and descending. This agrees with the context of salvation ands confirms that when an elect of God became saved, they were spiritually seated in heavenly places, but still had the task of preaching the gospel in this world. Effectively, they spiritually ascended (first) and then descended to carry out their duty.

This helps us when we come across a passage that speaks of the sons of God in heaven.

Job 1:6 (KJV 1900)
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

The scriptures alone teach us that the sons of God are only referring to one specific people, to those who became saved. The phrase "sons of God" is never used of angelic beings like many erroneously think.

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV 1900)
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

In other words, to no angels at any time has God ever said to them that they are a son. That is because angelic beings were never begotten (like in the relationship between a father and a son), but rather, angels were created beings, just like mankind was. But when mankind died in their soul, it wasn't until they were born again of the word of God, that they were said to be begotten sons.

1 John 5:18 (KJV 1900)
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 3:2 (KJV 1900)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So, we have plenty of evidence (including Enoch and Elijah) to confirm that these are in heaven. And not some mysterious atmosphere in the middle of no where, but in the presence of God. But then what could Jesus have meant by what he said then?
Well, the phrase to "ascend up into the heavens" is actually defined for us here:

Acts 2:34–36 (KJV 1900)
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In other words, to ascend up into the heavens means to have been made Lord and Christ. And no man has been made Lord and Christ (not even David) but Jesus alone. But very many have actually gone into heaven upon either physical death (for those who died saved (the sons of God)) or if they were changed while they were still living and taken to heaven (like Enoch and Elijah).

Ephesians 4:8–10 (KJV 1900)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men (salvation). 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

[Brightfame52]

ed ramos

So, from what I gather, you and John Gill believe that the soul of mankind is eternal which is why he stated that the the death that all men are appointed to die, does not include an eternal death, but a bodily death.

Yeah I believe the soul of man is eternal, but it didnt have a eternal beginning. Yes I dont think that verse in Heb 9:27 refers to eternal death, but I believe other verses with that word death does, like for instance Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And then he lists what he refers to as "exceptions". Now, I don't know who John Gill is or what else he believes, but it doesn't matter. All that matters is what someone brings to the table to be examined against the scriptures.

okay no problem

Romans 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)
For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

I dont see your point. Who said anything about respect of persons ? All of us are sinners and have sinned. Now some men had a Surety who paid their sin debt with death, He kept the Law for them, and endured their death due to it for their sin. Unfortunately others had not that surety, which is Jesus by the way Heb 7:22

Hebrews 9:27–28 (KJV 1900)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So (meaning, in like manner) Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Here we read that the death that mankind is appointed to die is likened to the death that Christ died to bear the sins of many. So, here is a question you must consider. Did Christ die only in his body, or did he die body and soul? Let's look at the time of the cross first and see what happened to his soul the day he died.

Currently I believe Jesus death was body and soul.

Luke 23:43 (KJV 1900)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, we know that Christ's physical body died, yet in his soul (as well as the thief's soul) he went into paradise, meaning, into his kingdom of heaven. But that's not all the scriptures have to say regarding Christ's death concerning salvation

It could be His soul suffered eternal death before He finally expired, at one point on the Cross He said, Why hast thou forsaken me. Could not that been the moments He experienced soul deaths', even the pains of hell ?

Ps 116:3

The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Isaiah 53:10 (KJV 1900)
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
He shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Psalm 16:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hell is a synonym for the grave which equates to death because of the wrath of God. Christ's soul, we read, was made an offering for sin and his soul was in hell (or under the wrath of God). But then, after satisfying the demands of his own law for the wages of sin, Christ rose from the dead, body and soul and was declared to be the son of God because he resurrected from the dead.

Romans 1:4 (KJV 1900)
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by (meaning, through the resurrection from the dead:

Agreed !

I know, you've been hearing me say over and over that payment for sins did not take place at the cross, but rather from the world's foundation.

Yeah, so far you haven't convinced me of that. Now because God who is the one to be satisfied by the death of His Son is outside of time, He didnt have to wait for the succession of time as we motrals do to count a thing a done deal Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Thats why I also believe in eternal justification of the elect, something I will discuss later. Do you believe that ?

And this is s truth that God has opened up in this time of the end. And no matter what topic we discuss in the Bible, the focus always comes back to this core issue. Christ's soul was not in hell at anytime after his death on the cross because where Christ went, the thief went also. And it was certainly to paradise, meaning the kingdom of heaven. This then means that we still have to account for the time when his soul (which was also made an offering for sin) was in hell

I tried to explain that earlier, Christs soul could have been in hell when He cried He was forasken. Isnt that hell for the damned ? Eternally forsaken of God, seperated, isnt that death to be seperated ?

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Sure in Gods Eternal Purpose. In that aspect we are saved 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God has always counted the Death of Christ a done deal from the Eternal aspect of Salvation. Hence Micah 5:2

2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

His coming to die has been decreed from everlasting. I will get back to this later.