"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 10889
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1537 times
Been thanked: 435 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #61

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tam in post #54]
Yes, no one NEEDS to be shunned. If they look down the road before they get baptized and see a disagreement with the WTS, they should not get baptized in the first place. That is the way to not get shunned. Once you are baptized, you are expected to support Jehovah's organization. A person might get baptized to be like all their friends, but that's not a good reason. They are lining themselves up for disaster. All this should be taken into consideration before making such a big step.

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 891
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #62

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:08 pm [Replying to tam in post #54]
Yes, no one NEEDS to be shunned. If they look down the road before they get baptized and see a disagreement with the WTS, they should not get baptized in the first place. That is the way to not get shunned. Once you are baptized, you are expected to support Jehovah's organization. A person might get baptized to be like all their friends, but that's not a good reason. They are lining themselves up for disaster. All this should be taken into consideration before making such a big step.
Water baptism is the baptism of repentance, of turning from sin. Getting baptized much like a fraternity baptism/right of entry, is kind of off the point. As for "children", they probably are not equipped to "look down the road". I haven't seen many adults equipped for that kind of foresight. Although being shunned may seem traumatic to the young, if it doesn't kill you, it will probably make you better. Keep in mind, all the disciples fled, fell away, and Yeshua was left alone, then and now. (Matthew 24:10).

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #63

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 am People that have stopped associating with us are free to do whatever they want. We may not agree with it but they are still considered our brothers and sisters and even if they murder someone we will continue to hope they repent and return to the flock.

If they have not stopped associating and conduct themselves in a way we see as grossly unbiblical they will be disfellowshipped. There is no defacto disfellowshipping they either request it in writing (whatever their motives) or we will do it for them.
Ok, so my question is; do JW's oppose any shunning of disassociated members?

You've provided info from the organization where it states that disassociated members( DM) aren't shunned by the organization...however, that says nothing about whether mom or any other family/friend will shun a person using their own liberty.

So, if a DM goes to JW leaders and say "Hey, moms is shunning me and all I did was disassociate myself from the organization. I mean after all, it isn't like I was disfellowshipped or something".

Will the leaders then council mom and tell her "I know you are upset that your child disassociated his/her self from the organization, but to shun the child, that isn't how we do things around here".

Is that how it goes down?

Or will the leaders say "Sorry Charlie, that is between you and moms".

Matthew 27:4 style..

"But they said, "What is that to us? You see to it." :lol:
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #64

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....
I have explained as best I can ...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:33 pm
1) Someone that disassociates themselves has withdrawn their assication from their congregation, if certain ones choose to give them the space they request that is a sign of respect.

2) Since someone that has disassociated themselves is still our spiritual brother or sister, there is absolutely no reason not to greet the person or frequent their business as such

3) Individuals who knows and are directly concerned are like anyone free to decide how they are going to react but if they are Christians they will do so in a wise and loving fashion .
Mere disassociation does not indicate wrongdoing and although personal relationship may be damaged by their decision , no Witness in good standing should treat such a person disfellowshipped as they do not the authority to judge in this capacity.
4) It is absolutely unheard of for an entire congregation to unilaterally "unofficially" shun a member and if it did happen this would indicate something was profoundly wrong with their theocratic process which would demand intervention from outside disciplinary measures.
How would you treat a fellow atheist (if you are one) who turned to Jesus? How would'you treat your adult child if he became a Jehovahs Witness?


JW



To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #65

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #64]

My very specific question(s) haven't been answered. If you feel you've answered, then I guess that is that.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #66

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:58 pm Ok, so my question is; do JW's oppose any shunning of disassociated members?
I presume when you say Jehovahs Witnesses you are speaking about the organsation ie policy.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:20 pm4) It is absolutely unheard of for an entire congregation to unilaterally "unofficially" shun a member and if it did happen this would indicate something was profoundly wrong with their theocratic process which would demand intervention from outside disciplinary measures.
Mere disassociation does not indicate wrongdoing and although personal relationship may be damaged by their decision , no Witness in good standing should treat such a person disfellowshipped as they do not the authority to judge in this capacity.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:58 pm ...however, that says nothing about whether mom or any other family/friend will shun a person using their own liberty.
So my question for you is do you think that liberty should be removed my our organisation ? We are not a cult, our organisation does not control or attempt to control individual personal relationships.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #67

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:58 pmSo, if a DM goes to JW leaders and say "Hey, moms is shunning me and all I did was disassociate myself from the organization. I mean after all, it isn't like I was disfellowshipped or something".
I'm confident you have read my answers in this thread so you know that as far as minor children living at home are concerned, there is effectively no distinction between being disfellowshipped (shunned) and disassociated ...


HOW DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TREAT THEIR DISFELLOWSHIPPED CHILDREN ?
Since his being disfellowshipped does not sever the family ties, normal day-to-day family activities and dealings may continue. ... if the disfellowshipped one is a minor child, the parents are still responsible to instruct and discipline him. Hence, loving parents may arrange to conduct a Bible study with the child. - lv published: Watchtower Society p. 207 par 3
An baptised adolescent or young adult that doesnt want to go to the meetings can't be forced to do so. If the Witness is following organisation guidelines nothing else changes; so I cannot imagine what the compliant would be.

If they are being negligent in one of the above areas, then yes, the church elders may offer counsel. If it was serious it might be considered criminal negligence and the proper authorities may need to be informed. Criminal negligence would be a disfellowshipping offense


JW



To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #68

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:47 pm
I presume when you say Jehovahs Witnesses you are speaking about the organsation ie policy.
Yes indeed.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:20 pm It is absolutely unheard of for an entire congregation to unilaterally "unofficially" shun a member and if it did happen this would indicate something was profoundly wrong with their theocratic process which would demand intervention from outside disciplinary measures.
:approve:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:47 pm Mere disassociation does not indicate wrongdoing and although personal relationship may be damaged by their decision
Damaged, but not "shunning" damaged...as per statement above?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:47 pm , no Witness in good standing should treat such a person disfellowshipped as they do not the authority to judge in this capacity.[/color]
?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:47 pm So my question for you is do you think that liberty should be removed my our organisation ? We are not a cult, our organisation does not control or attempt to control individual personal relationships.

JW
Well, "control" is a strong word here, and I do believe that JW's use mind control tactics, generally speaking...but to this situation; correct me if I am wrong, but when the organization finds out that a member is doing something contrary to Jehovah's word, they don't pull the member aside and give him/her the discouragement "talk"?

We both know that they do, so why would case be any different?
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #69

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:25 pm We both know that they do, so why would case be any different?
See edit.

I notice you didnt answer my question: Do you think our leadership should attempt to control personal relationships making decisions as to who people should or should not interact with and to what degree?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3935
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1250 times
Been thanked: 802 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #70

Post by Purple Knight »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #58]
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:14 pmNobody is suggesting mistakes are never made, but as this thread has illustrated, there are many misconceptions as to the Jehovah's Witness policy and practice. In my experience these misconceptions and inaccuracies are at least in part, due to misinformation produced by apostates and disgruntled ex-members. Could it be that attending a convention of debarred lawyers has a disproportionate number of people that disagree with the debarring process?
Of course, which is why I listen very, very critically. I've listened to some who I've gotten the idea left over a typical human dominance struggle because they felt they were better qualified to be dominant and they were not allowed to be so. I take your side there, absolutely. No part of our society, the JWs included, is legally guaranteed to be a meritocracy and the position you get is what you get. If you are legitimately better at X and didn't get position Y anyway, unless the discrimination is racial in nature, so be it, it's the human condition, boo hoo, we all feel like that all the time, don't throw a hissy fit. I would rather live in an enforced meritocracy but we don't, and I'm not going to hold some church to a higher standard than the rest of the society. That wouldn't be fair.

Here is a factual example of when I have listened to an apostate and taken the JWs' side. I don't think this fellow Harrison is concerned with logic and critical thinking and the fact that the Noah's Ark story is not terribly likely to be literally true. He pretends he is on his channel The Truth Hurts, but he admits he had these doubts and did nothing about them until he was prevented from having this position he wanted. My opinion is that this is someone who is pissy. IMO he is in the wrong... Despite the fact that I absolutely believe him that the Elders discriminated unfairly against him.



Here you can start at about 20 minutes in to hear him talk about what happened, and hear him admit that he had doubts before but was happy with the organisation anyway. And then if you like you can go on his channel, The Truth Hurts, and watch him rant for an hour plus about how silly Noah's Ark is. Yes, yes, but I've got you Harrison, that's not your actual issue, is it?

Post Reply