"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6522
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #51

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:34 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:17 pm ... are you suggesting people write in and say, please treat me as a disfellowshipped person; I want to be shunned?
I don't know how they word their correspondance (that is presumably individual to each person) but yes, people do of course make such requests. Apostates and disgruntled ex-witnesses even go so far as to post their request online and /or provide templates for others.

All Jehovahs Witnesses fully understand the repurcusssions of such a formal written request (which is why, while it is not unheard of, it is very rare).

Nobody is obliged to do the above, but if they do, is it an injustice their wishes are respected?
A - just because someone formally withdraws membership in a religion does not mean that they wish to be shunned.

B - are you going to deny that you religion considers certain actions to be a declaration of disassociation, even if a person NEVER requested a formal disassociation? Like accepting a blood transfusion? Or joining another religion? Or doing anything that the jw religion forbids, if indeed it gets reported back to them? Some people might just need to be free of the control of that religion.

C - unless you are silent about the reason you might have left (say, you have left because you realize that Christ is calling you out and to come to Him; or that no religion is true; or that the religion is teaching/commanding something that is in opposition to Christ - something you might not have realized when you joined, or something that might have changed SINCE you joined)... then you will be df'd or perhaps automatically da'd.



I'm not sure there is more to say than what has been said. The literature speaks for itself. Most of this has been covered in the links that I proved in the last couple of posts. Read them or not as you choose. At the very least, that information is there for anyone else to review if they wish. Because sometimes love can not keep silent. Out of the heart's abundance, the mouth speaks.


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #52

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:34 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:17 pm ... are you suggesting people write in and say, please treat me as a disfellowshipped person; I want to be shunned?
I don't know how they word their correspondance (that is presumably individual to each person) but yes, people do of course make such requests. Apostates and disgruntled ex-witnesses even go so far as to post their request online and /or provide templates for others.
Regardless of how they word it, all Jehovahs Witnesses fully understand the repurcusssions of such a formal written request (which is why, while it is not unheard of, it is very rare).
Nobody is obliged to do the above before leaving* but if they do, is it an injustice their wishes are respected?

* After 6 months of inactivity Witnesses are no longer counted as a member.
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm A - just because someone formally withdraws membership in a religion does not mean that they wish to be shunned.
I cannot speak for "someone" in general or for other religions, I can however speak as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I can assure you we are fully educated as to our own internal policy and procedures and have the mechanism in place that ensure such letters are not accepted until all parties concerned absolutely understand the implications of such a request in OUR religion.
So what is your objection, that what amounts to a formal request to be treated as a disfellowshipped person (they are NOT disfellowshipped, they are asking to be treated as such, which is not the same thing) , should not exist? Why not? Obviously there is a market for it. If someone wants to burn their bridges, who are we to stand in their way? Some people might just need to be "free" of this religion and that is their right.


JW




How do Jehovah's Witnesses ensure published policy is carried out?
viewtopic.php?p=1065143#p1065143



To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #53

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm
B - are you going to deny that you religion considers certain actions to be a declaration of disassociation, even if a person NEVER requested a formal disassociation?


People that have stopped associating with us are free to do whatever they want. We may not agree with it but they are still considered our brothers and sisters and even if they murder someone we will continue to hope they repent and return to the flock.

If they have not stopped associating and conduct themselves in a way we see as grossly unbiblical they will be disfellowshipped. There is no defacto disfellowshipping they either request it in writing (whatever their motives) or we will do it for them.

tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm
Some people might just need to be free of the control of that religion.
Good! Excellent... so what exactly is the problem if we ensure they get their freedom? Where is the injustice giving someone what they need?




JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6522
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #54

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 am
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm
B - are you going to deny that you religion considers certain actions to be a declaration of disassociation, even if a person NEVER requested a formal disassociation?


People that have stopped associating with us are free to do whatever they want. We may not agree with it but they are still considered our brothers and sisters and even if they murder someone we will continue to hope they repent and return to the flock.

If they have not stopped associating and conduct themselves in a way we see as grossly unbiblical they will be disfellowshipped. There is no defacto disfellowshipping they either request it in writing (whatever their motives) or we will do it for them.
I'm not sure you answered the question.


tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm
Some people might just need to be free of the control of that religion.
Good! Excellent... so what exactly is the problem if we ensure they get their freedom? Where is the injustice givjng someone what they need?
What a manipulative question.

No one 'needs' to be shunned by family members, friends, loved ones, in order to receive freedom from the control of a religion.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #55

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:52 am
No one 'needs' to be shunned by family members, friends, loved ones, in order to receive freedom from the control of a religion.
I agree, then they should just walk away. Problem solved.
Jehovahs Witnesses do NOT shun/ disfellowship members because they choose to leave our religion . Anyone that is a baptised member can simply stop coming to our church and after 6 months is no longer counted as a member.


source : https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/





JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


Do Jehovah's Witnesses shun/disfellowship folks for leaving their organization ? [This post]
viewtopic.php?p=1065834#p1065834

Do JWs view shunning a legitimate motive for divorce ?
viewtopic.php?p=1032193#p1032193

How do Jehovah'sWitnesses treat their disfellowshipped children ?
viewtopic.php?p=1062333#p1062333
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING / SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6522
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #56

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:56 am
tam wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:52 am
No one 'needs' to be shunned by family members, friends, loved ones, in order to receive freedom from the control of a religion.
I agree, then they should just walk away. Problem solved.
Therefore, the things you have said about a person 'asking for' shunning by disassociating themselves (by word or formal letter or action) has been incorrect. You (general you) are not 'respecting their wishes' to no longer be known as a jw by shunning them. And just because someone might feel the need to be free of the control of a religion does not mean that you are "giving them what they ask for" by shunning them.


I have to point this out as well: if you are pushing a loophole - a way to leave the religion without being shunned - then you must recognize that something is wrong with the practice of shunning former members.


Though that brings up another question, if I may ask?

Why do you preach? (not you personally, per se, but why does your religion go out and preach)


Peace again to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22820
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #57

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:20 am

Why do you preach? (not you personally, per se, but why does your religion go out and preach)
What has that got to do with the OP?









JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , THE 2ND COMING and ...THE GREAT COMMISSION,
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 10889
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1537 times
Been thanked: 435 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #58

Post by onewithhim »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:22 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:57 pmI was disfellowshipped for 5 years some time ago. I always understood that I was responsible for my own actions, and I knew they had to disfellowship me for my fornication. That is one serious sin that is not tolerated, along with the things listed, for example, at I Corinthians 6:9,10. A person that is disfellowshipped learns from the "shunning," that he must be an upstanding person, and he knows that he can be reinstated whenever he stops doing the sin for which he was disfellowshipped.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:57 pmWhoever resents being disfellowshipped is not taking responsibility for their unchristian actions.
Believe me I respect you, and I respect the religion that produces people who, a rarity in this world, can actually admit when they've done something wrong.

I also can't believe after listening to testimonials that every single time someone is kicked out, it is for just cause. I think religion in general has a problem, and that's too much faith... in your leadership. Just as you are a human being capable of being in the wrong, so too are your leaders.
True. But I see that JWs are not like other religions, in that they stick closer to the Bible and apply what the Bible says. Other religions turn a blind eye to so much unchristian conduct. A disfellowshipping is usually for a just cause, I'd say 999 times out of 1,000 or more. Sometimes the brothers don't disfellowship someone that has done serious wrong. That is a mistake, and the leadership makes it occasionally. Suffice it to say that the brothers don't want to disfellowship anyone, and they do their best to incite the person in question to leave his misguided ways.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 10889
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1537 times
Been thanked: 435 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #59

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tam in post #45]
There is nothing erroneous about the way JWs treat people who are no longer interested in serving Jehovah with His organization. JWs follow the scriptures closely, and disfellowshipping is something that Christ accepted as necessary to keep the congregation clean of tainting activity.

"If your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you two or more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation [that is, the elders who head the congregation]. If he does not listen even to the congregation, LET HIM BE TO YOU JUST AS A MAN OF THE NATIONS and as a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17)

If you know something about how Israel felt about tax collectors you would know that Jesus meant to shun the person who did not listen to those who were trying to help him. And a man of the nations was someone a Jew would not associate with, so Jesus was clearly supporting the disfellowshipping arrangement.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 10889
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1537 times
Been thanked: 435 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #60

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:34 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:17 pm ... are you suggesting people write in and say, please treat me as a disfellowshipped person; I want to be shunned?
I don't know how they word their correspondance (that is presumably individual to each person) but yes, people do of course make such requests. Apostates and disgruntled ex-witnesses even go so far as to post their request online and /or provide templates for others.

All Jehovahs Witnesses fully understand the repurcusssions of such a formal written request (which is why, while it is not unheard of, it is very rare).

Nobody is obliged to do the above, but if they do, is it an injustice their wishes are respected?
A - just because someone formally withdraws membership in a religion does not mean that they wish to be shunned.
They know fully what their withdrawal means. When I was disfellowshipped, I knew I would be shunned and I accepted that. I knew it was scriptural, as Christ indicated at Matthew 18:15-17.

To become a baptized JW, it is not a quick process. One goes through an intense study of the Bible, and then answers questions about his/her desire to serve Jehovah with His organization. They know full well what they are getting into, so deciding to leave the organization is truly an apostate move. After all that preparation to be a JW, and then later to come to resent JWs and the organization, bespeaks of an insincere, selfish person who has no regard for scriptural principles and laws. If they were a person who appreciates scriptural laws, they would accept their discipline and take responsibility for their two-facedness.

Post Reply