Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

[Revelations won]

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
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Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
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Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
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Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
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Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
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This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
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This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
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But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
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To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
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And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
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And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
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This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
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Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
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All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
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I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
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The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
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I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
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Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
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Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
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Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�

John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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The same was in the beginning with God.
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All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
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And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�

[PinSeeker]

I am content to leave the previous posts stand and move on as well.

As am I. These things are discerned with the help of the Holy Spirit. He will work according to the will of the Father, as Christ Jesus did.

...pointing out that there are translation or scribal errors in what is written.

For sure, there are some translations that are better than others, and there are some scribal errors, but some make more of them than what they really are (for various reasons). The preponderance of the evidence is clear. Regarding translations, there are some, like the NWT, that purposely re-engineer parts of Scripture to fit the narrative of those doing the translating. And in doing so, what those translators are doing is -- in your own words -- "provid(ing) only interpretations (based perhaps upon religious doctrines and traditions)." I'm not sure what translation you prefer, but in accusing me of that, I would turn the same thing back to you. In other words (with all due respect), right back atcha. You will disagree, I'm sure, but the evidence is overwhelmingly on my side. But, so be it; that's not my fight. The Lord will set that right -- like everything else -- in His time.

In reference to John 14 and Jesus's description of the role and work of the Holy Spirit, yes, in translating from Greek to English, it is possible to use connectors like 'which' and 'that' and pronouns like 'it' in rendering what Jesus said into English, but doing so is inadequate (even woefully so). It's much like referring to a baby as 'it'... which is acceptable, but does not change the fact that the baby is a male or female and therefore a 'he' or 'she.' Regarding Scripture, in like manner, the translation of the Greek word πίστις (pistis) to the English word 'faith' is really inadequate in conveying the true meaning of the Greek word. The Greek word used there conveys the ideas of fidelity, faithfulness, even a title deed, and proof. The English word 'faith' on its face only gives the idea of hopeful or wishful thinking, and that's contrary to the Biblical definition of 'pistis,' or 'faith,' given by the Bible itself in Hebrews 11:1 ("the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen")..

Since your non-negotiable is that the bible must be inerrant, you can understand that my non-negotiable is Christ (and His words/teaching).

And I have to laugh a bit when you put things this way. Your clear insinuation is that what you say is your non-negotiable is not also mine. Yes, the Word became flesh (John 1:14). Yet again, it's not an "either/or" thing but rather "both/and." Actually, I would follow in the steps of the Reformers in stating my position, which is summed up in their five "solas" (non-negotiables), all Biblical doctrines in and of themselves as well as one doctrine together:

• Sola Scriptura -- Scripture alone -- concerns the relation between Scripture and tradition, and affirms that Scripture is to be understood as the sole source of divine revelation, the only inspired, infallible, final, and authoritative norm of faith and practice... Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16); what Scripture says, God says

• Sola Fide -- by faith alone -- the sole instrument of justification is faith, and that even this faith is a gift of God by grace (Romans 3:28; 5:1; Ephesuans 2:8)

• Sola Gratia -- by grace alone -- salvation is an act of pure grace, and grace alone, on the part of God (Ephesians 2:8)

• Solus Christus -- in Christ alone -- Christ alone (and not the church) is our only Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 8:6, 9:15, 12:24), and the only way of salvation for man and central message of the Bible (Acts 4:12).

• Soli Del Gloria (the beginning and end of the other four) -- to the glory of God alone

Christ is not a book, of course, and we worship, follow, and endeavor to be more like a Person rather than a book; Jesus Himself said on more than one occasion and can be indisputably inferred in various passages of the Bible, all of Scripture is about Him (John 5:46 and Luke 24:27, to name two). So, with regard to the contrast you are making, figuratively speaking, there is none. This book, given by God and therefore His Word -- via the power of His Holy Spirit -- informs us from cover to cover of Who Jesus Christ is and what it means to know Him and follow Him, and even eventually to become like Him. In short, it is formative, in the very sense that Paul conveys in Romans 12, that we are to be transformed by the renewal of our minds (Romans 12:2), and it is the Holy Spirit Who (that, if you prefer, but it makes Him no less a person) effects this in us (again, John 14). The Helper brings all that Jesus has said to our remembrance, which means not just causing us to remember what Jesus said, but causing us to act in accordance with what Jesus said.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy, in the matchless name of our Savior and Lord -- and God -- Jesus Christ.

[PinSeeker]

Not to lend relevancy or credence to the assertion that Jesus is not God because He prayed, but, well, did He pray before He calmed the sea? No. Did He pray when He turned the water to wine? No. Did he pray when He multiplied the fish and the bread and fed over 20,000 people? No. Did He pray when He pronounced the forgiveness of sins? No.

How do you know that Jesus didn't pray before all the things you mention?

As I said previously to others (more than once, I believe), I only know what Scripture actually says, and there is nothing in those passages we have been talking about and others that says or even insinuates that He prayed before doing those things. In addition, the particular things we talked about (calming the sea, turning the water to wine, feeding over 20,000 people with hardly enough food for one small family) are of the same import as other things He did pray for.

Did he have to make a public spectacle out of it every time he prayed? Of course not. One doesn't have to pray on one's knees or look up at heaven every time one prays.

Agreed. Now, this is not really relevant to this particular issue, but I would submit that Jesus lived His life as a man here on earth in constant prayer -- figuratively speaking -- to the Father, as Paul exhorts us to do in Romans 12:12. Nevertheless, did He actually stop and take time out in these instances and pray, either silently or aloud? As I said, Scripture very clearly says He did not, not by actually saying, "Jesus did not pray," but by recounting His specific actions, and prayer is not one of them.

I'm sure he said prayers under his breath before doing his miracles.

Well, I say you cannot say that with any real certainty at all. I respect your opinion, and you can do what you want, but I say you cannot. No offense to you, but you can only speculate on this.

And you cannot claim to know that he did not.

Well, yes I can. See above. I respect your opinion, but I can; we all can.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Acts 2: 22

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

God did the miracles seemingly performed by Jesus.

So performing miracles does not prove that the man "doing" the miracles is a God.

Jesus was a man, not a God.

The apostles also "performed" some miracles.

They also were men, not Gods.

=============================================

Jesus was not Jehovah of the Old Testament.

[tam]

Peace to you,

...pointing out that there are translation or scribal errors in what is written.

For sure, there are some translations that are better than others, and there are some scribal errors,

Then there should be no issue with my reference to it in post 163.

In reference to John 14 and Jesus's description of the role and work of the Holy Spirit, yes, in translating from Greek to English, it is possible to use connectors like 'which' and 'that' and pronouns like 'it' in rendering what Jesus said into English, but doing so is inadequate (even woefully so).

The only reason for a person to think it is inadequate is because of their belief in the trinity.

If a person understands that holy spirit is the breath, blood, seed of JAH - and not a person - then there is no issue.

Since your non-negotiable is that the bible must be inerrant, you can understand that my non-negotiable is Christ (and His words/teaching).

And I have to laugh a bit when you put things this way. Your clear insinuation is that what you say is your non-negotiable is not also mine.

I meant for you to understand that I listen to the word and teaching of Christ. Not the bible or interpretations of that book, not religion, nor the doctrines of men (Reformers or otherwise).

Just Christ. This is the reason I keep asking you to provide His words on the matter. You have provided only interpretations, interpretations that sometimes state the opposite of what is written.

Christ is not a book, of course,

Yes of course, He - Christ Jaheshua - is not a book.

He is the LIVING Word of God. He is alive, He speaks, He HIMSELF leads His sheep. His sheep listen to His voice, He calls them by name and they follow Him.

He is the Word of God who is alive and active and sharper than any double edged sword.

He is the Word of God who came to the prophets.

He is the Word of God who is inerrant.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ Jaheshua,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

You have provided only interpretations, interpretations that sometimes state the opposite of what is written.

The very same to you, Tammy. Exactly. Yeah, like I said, right back at you. What you think is the "opposite" of what is written is not always opposite of what is written. Opposite of your understanding, maybe, or the understanding you want to hold to for whatever reason. And, you will say the same to me. Fine.

I only brought up the Reformers' five Solas, which are solidly based in Scripture, as I demonstrated -- in response to your assertion that you listen Christ and your insinuation that I do not.

And let me ask you this -- really a rhetorical question, or a series of rhetorical questions, but still. Food for thought, maybe. Now, I'm... quite sure you will come up with something in response, but this concerns what I have said regarding what Jesus said in John 14, and that He clearly refers to the Holy Spirit as a Person Who also, as He Himself does, proceeds (again, a very important concept to understand properly) from the Father. But I'm going to say, just for the purpose of making a point, that the Spirit is not a person, that it is just a spirit that He gives us, that we then have inside us. Jesus does refer to this "spirit" as "another helper," right? So if it is just a spirit that we at some point are given, is this "helper" ourselves? Or, in reference to you, is your helper yourself? Are you the one that Jesus said would bring to remembrance all that He has said? So then, logically, should you praise yourself -- or at least pat yourself on the back -- for the help you have given and/or are giving yourself?

I mean, I can anticipate what you will say; you don't have to bother unless you just want to. It is, though, a head-scratcher.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Jesus was a man, not a God.

Oh, He was God, and is, and will always be. One of the three Persons the triune YHVH, anyway. As is the case with the Father, Jesus never changes; He is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8).

The apostles also "performed" some miracles. They also were men, not Gods.

Agreed. The time of the apostles was a very special time in the life of the church. But the apostles, myth-one, were never worshiped, as Jesus was, even as an infant (Matthew 2:11), and never invited worship as He did in Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9 and 17, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, and Thomas in John 20:28. yes, the apostles were surely not God (or gods).

Jesus was not Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Oh, yes He was (and is), but not all of Him. There was (and is) also the Father and the Holy Spirit, from the beginning. This always thus, and always thus shall be.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

You have provided only interpretations, interpretations that sometimes state the opposite of what is written.

The very same to you, Tammy. Exactly. Yeah, like I said, right back at you. What you think is the "opposite" of what is written is not always opposite of what is written. Opposite of your understanding, maybe, or the understanding you want to hold to for whatever reason. And, you will say the same to me. Fine.

Grace and peace to you.

Except that is not true, Pinseeker.

Here is an example:

Christ said that He is the Son of God. <- direct words.

Pinseeker (and many others) say, "Christ is God the Son."

One is the direct words from Christ.

One is an interpretation of what is written (influenced perhaps with traditions from the RCC).

Even the direct words are not enough; man has to add to His direct words because those words are not "I am one of three persons in a trinity"... or "I am YHWH" (something that He also never states). So in order to push that doctrine (of the trinity) religion has to push the idea that "we have to understand what He meant 'in light of other scriptures'" (or in light of some other thing). Then they add their spin, and people buy into it.

I simply take my Lord at His word. There is no other word that I can trust, there is no other Word who is the Truth, the Word of God. There is no other person (or thing) to whom God told us to listen.

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."


May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

(which water is holy spirit, poured out from Christ, as has been given to Him without end from His Father)


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

Jesus was not Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Oh, yes He was (and is), but not all of Him. There was (and is) also the Father and the Holy Spirit, from the beginning. This always thus, and always thus shall be.

So the Word did not exist from the beginning -- as the Bible states?

[PinSeeker]

You have provided only interpretations, interpretations that sometimes state the opposite of what is written.

The very same to you, Tammy. Exactly. Yeah, like I said, right back at you. What you think is the "opposite" of what is written is not always opposite of what is written. Opposite of your understanding, maybe, or the understanding you want to hold to for whatever reason. And, you will say the same to me. Fine.

Except that is not true, Pinseeker.

In your opinion, it is not true. Yes, I understand. It is true, whether you think so or not.

Here is an example

Oh, great!

Christ said that He is the Son of God. <- direct words.

True. Do you think I do not believe that?

Pinseeker (and many others) say, "Christ is God the Son."

That He did not directly say this in those exact words is true. But the fact that He did not directly say this in those exact words does not make this statement of mine untrue; the statement itself is still true.

One is the direct words from Christ.

Inarguable, but not proving of your point.

I simply take my Lord at His word.

But not in John 14, I guess, and possibly other places...

Anyway, yes, as do I, assuredly. But to listen to no one else concerning these things is a problem; that's the VERY REASON God gave us each other. But, do what you want.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

So the Word did not exist from the beginning -- as the Bible states?

Good question! That's exactly the effect of what you are postulating. The Word and Jesus are not two different entities, myth-one. That's... a myth.

Grace and peace to you.