You MUST be born again

[Checkpoint]

You MUST be born again".

That is a very emphatic statement, made to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher.

Here now is the whole passage, from John 3:

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

An interesting exchange, and an interesting subject.

How do you understand what Jesus taught in these verses?

What do you say being born again, or being born of the Spirit, actually is?

Is this for every follower of Jesus, or only for some believers?

Does it take place in this life, or in the one to come, or both?

Why is it so important?

Could it be similar to, or the result of, repentance and/or saving faith?

How would you explain verse 8?

[JehovahsWitness]

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states: Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

Jesus said those resurrected to spirit life cannot die; they will indeed be granted immortality. However what are we to make of the expression translated in the King James Version "they are equal unto the angels"?

LIKE ANGELS OR IDENTICAL TO ANGELS?

Firstly, note Strong' s entry for the Greek expression "isaggelos" (#2464 ), it explains the term can be rendered ...


Jesus is not suggesting the angels and spirit born again resurrected ones are literally equal or the same in every way, since Christ's brothers will outrank the angels in their resurrected position (see 1 Cor 6:3). Jesus is making a comparision ("like"), not making a statement of absolute equality ("The same as")

Note various translations :

Luc 20.36 — The New International Version (NIV)
36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Luc 20.36 — New Living Translation (NLT)
36 And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.

Luc 20.36 — New International Reader’s Version (NIrV)
36 They can’t die anymore. They are like the angels. They are God’s children. They will be given a new form of life when the dead rise.

Note Jesus said they (those specifically said to be granted immortality) will be "like" the anges, he did not say the angels will be like them. We know there wll be something unique about Christs brothers that the angels do not have (namely their elevated position ) so it is reasonable to conclude that their immortality is not the feature they have in common with the angels.

HOW ARE THEY "LIKE ANGELS"

So if the language at least allows, even suggests those resurrected to spirit life do not have immortaity in common with angels, in what way are they similar? The ambiguity of the verse has given raise to various readings as to what angelic quality the resurrected ones will share. Those translations that use ponctuation and connecters (neither of which are in the original text) to imply the comparison relates to immortality do well to note Jesus second clause. Jesus pointed out that the resurrected ones will become "children of God" a point which would be rendered redundant if the comparison were of the previously mentioned immortality.

To illustrate:
They can’t die anymore. They are like the angels. They are God’s children.
That girl will grow up to meet the President; she will be just like Marilyn Munroe; she she will have an hourglass figure.

Why did we mention her hourglass figure if the comparison with Munroe are her Presidential connections?

It is not a foregone conclusion Jesus' mention of immortality was meant to be applicable to the angels.

Finally context : Jesus is actually speaking about marriage; the question being whether resurrected ones will marry. He answers the question by pointing out that those granted immortality in heaven will have no need to marry (and by implication, form their own families) being as they will be ...like the angels, members of God's family Immortality, of itself would not actually answer the question; it would be like answering the question "Can you speak Spanish" by pointing out the colour if your sweater.

CONCLUSION Immortality is explicitly linked in Luke 20:36 ONLY with the resurrected ones. Those humans who join Gods heavenly family will be like the angels, who are not gender bound and do not marry to form seperate families. Like Christ, they will outrank the angels and be granted something even angels do not have: namely immortality. Immortality is never mentioned in scripture as being intrinsic to ALL spirit all life.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #435]

Checkpoint wrote:
What I am affirming is what the New Testament says about those who were then being born again.[/quote]

But no one was then being born again of the Spirit. They did not yet know what it even meant.

Get real.

All they did not know was your version of what it meant.

Nicodemus was smart enough to know that he did not know.

I have the same version they had -- the one from Jesus. To enter the Kingdom of God one must be born again of the Spirit.

And you are smart enough to know what John and Peter and Paul did not, even though they had the same Jesus version?

You do have the smartness of Nicodemus.

Just like him, you think Jesus was teaching about actual literal tangible birth, and about the kingdom that will be after the final Judgment at the Second Coming.


He wasn't.

[myth-one.com]

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states: Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

Jesus said those resurrected to spirit life cannot die; they will indeed be granted immortality.

That's all it means -- immortality. The one difference between man and the angels is a mortal physical body versus an immortal spiritual body.

Jesus is actually speaking about marriage; the question being whether resurrected ones will marry. He answers the question by pointing out that those granted immortality in heaven will have no need to marry (and by implication, form their own families) being as they will be ...like the angels, members of God's family Immortality, of itself would not actually answer the question; it would be like answering the question "Can you speak Spanish" by pointing out the colour if your sweater.

WHAT? Immortality does indeed answer the question!

God created marriage to produce families. The sexual act within marriage procreates the human race. In the Kingdom of God, there are no humans and thus no marriage. There we will be like the angels which live forever. Since angels live forever, there is no need to reproduce themselves. Therefore, there is no reason for sex in the Kingdom of God, and thus no marriage. Every being in the Kingdom of God will be asexual.

CONCLUSION Immortality is explicitly linked in Luke 20:36 ONLY with the resurrected ones.

No, every human who ever lived will be resurrected! Only some (the believers) will be resurrected to everlasting life!

Like Christ, they will outrank the angels and be granted something even angels do not have: namely immortality. Immortality is never mentioned in scripture as being intrinsic to ALL spirit all life.

Incredible. Where do you get this stuff?

There is a natural body and a spiritual body and the one difference between the two body types is that all physical bodies will perish and all spiritual bodies will live forever.

Man is a physical bodied animal which has the capability of becoming equal unto the angels.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #435]

Expecting no answers, as usual.

Questions? Rather, assumptions expressed as questions.

Assumptions of literal and/or future happenngs , all related to being "born again of the Spirit" as you misapply it.

Such questions illustrate a foolish mindset.

One is enough.

So again, thanks, but no thanks.

[tam]

Peace again to you all,

Regardless of the disagreement on what Christ meant when He spoke to Nicodemus, we (if chosen) will - LITERALLY; SPIRITUALLY - be born again. At His coming, we will be taken up, we will be changed, we will put off this flesh (the mortal, with sin and death in it) and put on the new body, the white robe (the immortal, with life in it).


What we have now, if we have received it, is the token/deposit/guarantee of things to come: holy spirit (the breath, blood, seed of JAH).



Peace again.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #445]


Jesus Christ stated, "no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

Paul, as inspired by God, wrote:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

Are you still flesh and blood?

If so, you have not yet been born again of the Spirit.

Flesh and blood believers are presently heirs to everlasting life.

That is from the inspired words of God -- not me.

[JehovahsWitness]

There we will be like the angels which live forever.

Are you suggesting living forever equates to immortality? If so why?

[JehovahsWitness]

Immortality is never mentioned in scripture as being intrinsic to ALL spirit all life.

Incredible. Where do you get this stuff?

If you believe you can produce a scripture that proves my statement false, produce it, otherwise my statement stands as fact. Luke 20:36 only explicitly mentions immortality in relation to the resurrected born again believers.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #446]

Are you still flesh and blood?

If so, you have not yet been born again of the Spirit.

Flesh and blood believers are presently heirs to everlasting life.

That is from the inspired words of God -- not me.

Yes, I am still flesh and blood, just like you!

Even so, I am born again to a living hope. I have been born of God, who is Spirit..

That is how I became a child of God, and therefore an heir to everlasting life. You too?

This is according to the inspired words of God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to tam in post #445]

What we have now, if we have received it, is the token/deposit/guarantee of things to come: holy spirit (the breath, blood, seed of JAH).

Yes, if we have that now, it confirms we have been born again. That is, born of God, who is Spirit.


Grace and peace to you, and to all.