You MUST be born again

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Checkpoint
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You MUST be born again

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

You MUST be born again".

That is a very emphatic statement, made to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher.

Here now is the whole passage, from John 3:

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
An interesting exchange, and an interesting subject.

How do you understand what Jesus taught in these verses?

What do you say being born again, or being born of the Spirit, actually is?

Is this for every follower of Jesus, or only for some believers?

Does it take place in this life, or in the one to come, or both?

Why is it so important?

Could it be similar to, or the result of, repentance and/or saving faith?

How would you explain verse 8?
Last edited by Checkpoint on Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #431

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:52 pm
Physical bodies die because they are physical bodies --
1.On what do you base this conclusion?

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:52 pm
Physical bodies die ... not because of sin any longer.

2. What do you make of Romans 5:12?


3. Are you saying God is incapable of making a physical body live forever if it were His will ?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

Post #432

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:45 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:10 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #421]

The argument for a limited, relatively few-in-number, Christians going to heaven has been reasonably posted, and I wonder if you, myth-one.com, have clicked on JehovahsWitness's links to other information. It would be a good thing to do, if you really want to think this thing through. Aren't we having a discussion here? How can we discuss if you don't look at ALL of the person's information which is provided in interesting links?
Yes, I have clicked on some JehovahsWitness's links.
But, Otseng wrote:The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference . . .
With the Bible as my "primary reference," here is some stuff from the Bible regarding where born again Christians will spend eternity:

The earth is not presently part of the Kingdom of Heaven. In fact, we are instructed in the Lord's prayer to pray for the Earth to become part of the Kingdom of Heaven:

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)

After the Second Coming and Jesus' defeat of Satan, the Earth will once again become part of the kingdom:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule and part of the Kingdom of Heaven as is heaven itself. This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth from Satan. And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?

The Lord shall reign for ever and ever. (Exodus 15:18)

The Lord shall reign for ever... (Psalm 146:10)

And they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)


And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?

We shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

Where will Jesus base His rule and locate His tabernacle to rule the earth? The holy city of Jerusalem:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)

New Jerusalem is part of what Jesus has been preparing for us over the past two thousand years. He will bring it down from heaven upon His return. Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place us forever and ever?

On the earth!
==================================================

The scriptures never indicate that Christians cannot or will not go to heaven. After all, it is also included in the Kingdom of Heaven.

However, their home base will definitely be the good earth!
All of the previous links are Bible-based as well. I and other JWs here have not contested the idea that born-again Christians will be ruling in heaven with Christ. We believe that very solidly. The point being made is that the majority of people that were ever born, including most of the people alive today, will live on earth in paradise conditions, under the patronage and guidance of Christ and his co-rulers. (Psalm 37: 9-11,29)

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #433

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:05 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:52 pm
Physical bodies die because they are physical bodies --
1.On what do you base this conclusion?
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)


Man's possible second and permanent physical death is optional -- depending on each man's individual choice of accepting or rejecting everlasting life through Jesus Christ.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:52 pm
Physical bodies die ... not because of sin any longer.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:05 am 2. What do you make of Romans 5:12?
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Sin has no affect on how mankind gains salvation today, it is meaningless or for informational purposes only.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:05 am 3. Are you saying God is incapable of making a physical body live forever if it were His will ?
God makes things the best way.

God created mankind perfect for God's purposes.

He created us originally to live until we sinned, or until we ate from the Tree of Life.

In other words, he allowed mankind to make the choice regarding our longevity.

There are two body types: natural and spiritual.

If God wanted a being to live forever, He would make that being a spiritual being.

To do otherwise makes "God is Love" a lie.

========================================

But mankind is "Plan B" anyways.

In the beginning, God made created the heavens and the earth, and created immortal angels to care for and maintain the earth.

Some of these angels rebelled and abandoned their first estate. As a result the earth became formless, void, and dark.

God returned, re-created the earth, and created mankind -- commanding them to replenish the earth in place of the rebellious angels.

So it would be utterly stupid to create mankind immortal and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity.

Man is given a taste of life, given the options of extending or terminating his life for all eternity -- then asked to choose one or the other.

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You MUST be born again

Post #434

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #430]


Checkpoint wrote:
What I am affirming is what the New Testament says about those who were then being born again.
But no one was then being born again of the Spirit. They did not yet know what it even meant.
Get real.

All they did not know was your version of what it meant.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #435

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:10 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #430]


Checkpoint wrote:
What I am affirming is what the New Testament says about those who were then being born again.
But no one was then being born again of the Spirit. They did not yet know what it even meant.
Get real.

All they did not know was your version of what it meant.
Nicodemus was smart enough to know that he did not know.

I have the same version they had -- the one from Jesus. To enter the Kingdom of God one must be born again of the Spirit.

===============================================

But you claim to have already been born again of the Spirit.

Describe that process.

Since that which is born of the spirit is spirit, what happened to your earthly physical body?
=========================================

According to the Bible, you are equal unto the angels.

Tell me about the spiritual world in which you move as the wind.
=========================================

You have "seen" the Kingdom of God.

Describe it to me.
=========================================

What do you do in the spiritual world?
=========================================

There is no marriage in the Kingdom of God.

Do married humans which have been born again of the Spirit have to get divorced? ========================================

When you are resurrected at the Second Coming as a spiritual body as the Bible states, what are you going to do with your present spiritual body -- which can never die?

Are you going to have multiple personalities?

How does that work?
========================================

The Bible indicates that the natural and spiritual bodies do not mix. The natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last, if at all.

That makes more sense.

Expecting no answers, as usual.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #436

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DO PHYSICAL BODIES DIE BECAUSE THEY ARE PHYICAL?


JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:05 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:52 pm
Physical bodies die because they are physical bodies --
1.On what do you base this conclusion?
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:40 pmFor that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

Do you believe that the above scripture establish causation ("because")? If so, can you explain in complete sentences how?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #437

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:40 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:05 am 2. What do you make of Romans 5:12?
Sin has no affect on how mankind gains salvation today { snip: non sequitur}

The question is not regarding salvation, the question is on the cause of death. QUESTION: What does Romans 5:12 say as to the cause of death?




DO HUMANS DIE BECAUSE THEY ARE PHYSICAL BEINGS OR BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN?

Image
Contemporary English Version
Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

English Revised Version
Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #438

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:40 pm
If God wanted a being to live forever, He would make that being a spiritual being.
QUESTION : That is the scriptural basis for this statement?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #439

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:40 pm In the beginning, God made created .. immortal angels ...
Are there any passages in the bible that indicate angels were created immortel*? If so could you produce these please?



[ * ] For this discussion "immortal"/"immortality" can be understood to mean, being indestructible. To have self-generating life that is not dependent on anything or anyone to be sustained; life that cannot be terminated.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #440

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:34 am
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:40 pm In the beginning, God made created .. immortal angels ...
Are there any passages in the bible that indicate angels were created immortal*? If so could you produce these please?
Immortal: incapable of dying.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

If angels cannot die, they are immortal.

I'm surprised you ask such a basic question.

Do you study the Bible?

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