You MUST be born again

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 64 times

You MUST be born again

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

You MUST be born again".

That is a very emphatic statement, made to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher.

Here now is the whole passage, from John 3:

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
An interesting exchange, and an interesting subject.

How do you understand what Jesus taught in these verses?

What do you say being born again, or being born of the Spirit, actually is?

Is this for every follower of Jesus, or only for some believers?

Does it take place in this life, or in the one to come, or both?

Why is it so important?

Could it be similar to, or the result of, repentance and/or saving faith?

How would you explain verse 8?
Last edited by Checkpoint on Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 64 times

You MUST be born again

Post #421

Post by Checkpoint »

myth-one.com wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:05 am
Checkpoint post_id=1033880 time=1615191708 user_id=13081]
Being born again is our entrance into God's spiritual world as His children, with all that that means and will mean.

A passing from death to life, from darkness into His marvelous light.

One that happens to everyone who is a believer. All of them on this earth and in this mortal body.
The reward of the saved is everlasting life.[

But God cannot make a mortal body which lives forever.

Thus to gain everlasting life, the saved must be born again of the Spirit.

Because that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And spiritual bodies live forever.


Being born again/of the Spirit/of God, is not about the reward of the saved, but about becoming a child of God who will thus be saved and rewarded, and live forever.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit(not "a spirit"; not a body).




===========================================================

You can be born again repeatedly to a hope, a wish, a new attitude, etc.

But only being born again of the Spirit gains one everlasting spiritual bodied life.

And that happens once, and only once, at the Second Coming:

When he shall appear at the Second Coming, we shall be like him.

The believers body which is sown like a seed, is a natural body.

That body will be resurrected as a spiritual body.

Behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me.

Etc, etc, etc.


Thus you trivialize parts of the Word of God by abruptly dismissing what John wrote about those who were already born of God.

And, as usual, replace it with promotion of your untrue and unscriptural fairy-tale of it being our resurrection with a spiritual body.

You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

TPersistence in doing so inevitably results in a loss of any credibility.

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7466
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 98 times
Contact:

Re: You MUST be born again

Post #422

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:12 amBeing born again/of the Spirit/of God, is not about the reward of the saved, but about becoming a child of God who will thus be saved and rewarded, and live forever.
You are claiming that being born again/of the Spirit/of God, is not about the reward of the saved, but it is about the reward of the saved.

Powerful argument.
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:12 am That which is born of the Spirit is spirit(not "a spirit"; not a body).

Are you denying the existence of "spiritual bodies"?


There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 10904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1538 times
Been thanked: 438 times

Re: This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

Post #423

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #421]

The argument for a limited, relatively few-in-number, Christians going to heaven has been reasonably posted, and I wonder if you, myth-one.com, have clicked on JehovahsWitness's links to other information. It would be a good thing to do, if you really want to think this thing through. Aren't we having a discussion here? How can we discuss if you don't look at ALL of the person's information which is provided in interesting links?

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7466
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 98 times
Contact:

Re: This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

Post #424

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:10 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #421]

The argument for a limited, relatively few-in-number, Christians going to heaven has been reasonably posted, and I wonder if you, myth-one.com, have clicked on JehovahsWitness's links to other information. It would be a good thing to do, if you really want to think this thing through. Aren't we having a discussion here? How can we discuss if you don't look at ALL of the person's information which is provided in interesting links?
Yes, I have clicked on some JehovahsWitness's links.
But, Otseng wrote:The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference . . .
With the Bible as my "primary reference," here is some stuff from the Bible regarding where born again Christians will spend eternity:

The earth is not presently part of the Kingdom of Heaven. In fact, we are instructed in the Lord's prayer to pray for the Earth to become part of the Kingdom of Heaven:

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)

After the Second Coming and Jesus' defeat of Satan, the Earth will once again become part of the kingdom:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule and part of the Kingdom of Heaven as is heaven itself. This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth from Satan. And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?

The Lord shall reign for ever and ever. (Exodus 15:18)

The Lord shall reign for ever... (Psalm 146:10)

And they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)


And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?

We shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

Where will Jesus base His rule and locate His tabernacle to rule the earth? The holy city of Jerusalem:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)

New Jerusalem is part of what Jesus has been preparing for us over the past two thousand years. He will bring it down from heaven upon His return. Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place us forever and ever?

On the earth!
==================================================

The scriptures never indicate that Christians cannot or will not go to heaven. After all, it is also included in the Kingdom of Heaven.

However, their home base will definitely be the good earth!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22822
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 892 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Contact:

Re: You MUST be born again

Post #425

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:54 pm
Natural physical bodies are mortal.

Physical bodies can die (just as spirits can die), but if God wants a "natural" material flesh and blood body to live forever then I'm sure you will agree, it will live forever. That is unless you think there is something that Almighty God doesn't have the power to achieve. In short, physical bodies do not have to die. They only die because of sin(compare Roman 5:12), a sinless flesh and blood physical human being can live as long as Jehovah lives.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 64 times

You MUST be born again

Post #426

Post by Checkpoint »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:10 am
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:12 amBeing born again/of the Spirit/of God, is not about the reward of the saved, but about becoming a child of God who will thus be saved and rewarded, and live forever.
You are claiming that being born again/of the Spirit/of God, is not about the reward of the saved, but it is about the reward of the saved.

Powerful argument.
It was, until mauled by you.
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:12 am That which is born of the Spirit is spirit(not "a spirit"; not a body).

Are you denying the existence of "spiritual bodies"?


There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)


No, I am not denying the future existence of spiritual bodies.

What I am denying is that being born again is our future resurrected spiritual body, which is what you claim.

What I am affirming is what the New Testament says about those who were then being born again.

Are you denying the relevance and truthfulness of those scriptures?

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7466
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 98 times
Contact:

Re: You MUST be born again

Post #427

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:31 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:54 pm
Natural physical bodies are mortal.

Physical bodies can die (just as spirits can die), but if God wants a "natural" material flesh and blood body to live forever then I'm sure you will agree, it will live forever. That is unless you think there is something that Almighty God doesn't have the power to achieve. In short, physical bodies do not have to die. They only die because of sin(compare Roman 5:12), a sinless flesh and blood physical human being can live as long as Jehovah lives.

JW
Wow! I don't know where to start.

You claim spirits can die.

God is a Spirit: . . . (John 4:24)

Should we be concerned about God's future?
=================================================

The bodies that God wants to live forever were created as Spirits.

Every physical body will die because God created them that way.

Sometime around 1975-1980, a group of scientists concluded that human beings could live to a maximum of one hundred and twenty years of age. It was discovered that shortly before reaching one hundred and twenty the process that causes body cells to reproduce fails. The cells then die as well as the person.

Independently, others came up with exactly the same number as the maximum age for mortal mankind three thousand years ago:

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

God wants us dead within 120 years.
==================================================

Physical bodies most certainly have to die.

The only possible "exception" is those believers which are alive at the Second Coming. They will be changed to spirits without having to sleep:

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)


These Christians will not experience death in the usual sense. However, as their physical bodies will rot and decay, they could be said to die in that they no longer support a life.
==============================================

Physical bodies die because they are physical bodies -- not because of sin any longer.

My dogs have better characters than I. To my knowledge, they are free of sin. But sadly, they will die.

Did stillborn babies sin before they died?
=============================================

You claimed that "a sinless flesh and blood physical human being can live as long as Jehovah lives."

When the Spirit Jehovah dies (which you stated above as a possibility), do all of us have to die also?

How does that work?

Oh well, just a few observations about your post.

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7466
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 98 times
Contact:

Re: You MUST be born again

Post #428

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:55 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:10 am
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:12 amBeing born again/of the Spirit/of God, is not about the reward of the saved, but about becoming a child of God who will thus be saved and rewarded, and live forever.
You are claiming that being born again/of the Spirit/of God, is not about the reward of the saved, but it is about the reward of the saved.

Powerful argument.
It was, until mauled by you.
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:12 am That which is born of the Spirit is spirit(not "a spirit"; not a body).
Are you denying the existence of "spiritual bodies"?


There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)
No, I am not denying the future existence of spiritual bodies.

What I am denying is that being born again is our future resurrected spiritual body, which is what you claim.
No, that is not my claim. Specifically, being born again of the Spirit is when we are born with a spiritual body.
Checkpoint wrote:What I am affirming is what the New Testament says about those who were then being born again.

Are you denying the relevance and truthfulness of those scriptures?
What verses state that any man has been born again of the Spirit?

The Bible states that is what must happen to us for us to see the Kingdom of God.

Who has that happened to?

Name the first person to be born again of the Spirit.

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 64 times

You MUST be born again

Post #429

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #428]

Checkpoint wrote:
What I am affirming is what the New Testament says about those who were then being born again.

Are you denying the relevance and truthfulness of those scriptures?
What verses state that any man has been born again of the Spirit?

The Bible states that is what must happen to us for us to see the Kingdom of God.

Who has that happened to?

Name the first person to be born again of the Spirit.
Your questions confirm that you do adamantly deny the relevance and truthfulness of verses in the New Testament that specifically refer to the new birth.

That is, of those who had been born again or born of God; of His imperishable seed, to become the children of God.

You are thereby trying to teach, or correct, God.

Isn't it high time you, rather, let Him teach you on this issue, and to accept His correction?

It's not too late. You can do it!
Matthew 18:
3 “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7466
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 98 times
Contact:

Re: You MUST be born again

Post #430

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:10 am [Replying to myth-one.com in post #428]

Checkpoint wrote:
What I am affirming is what the New Testament says about those who were then being born again.
But no one was then being born again of the Spirit. They did not yet know what it even meant.

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)


Christians will become "children of the resurrection."

That is, they will be born of the Spirit at their resurrection.

They were born once before in their existence, their physical birth.

Since Christians are born a second time as a spiritual being at the resurrection, they are born again!

When that occurs, we will have gained everlasting life.

It is an actual, real birth, not simply some emotional occurrence experienced during our physical life on earth.

We are converted or born again as spiritual, immortal bodies, as opposed to our present physical, mortal bodies.

We are new spirits, and thus spiritual "children."

This blessed birth occurs at the resurrection, thus we are children of the resurrection.

We are sinless humble children, just as we were when first born as a human -- the only difference is that we are spiritual children.

We enter the Kingdom of God with a clean slate.

Like Jesus, God's only begotten Son to this date, we will have become the children of God.

The family will have gotten much larger.

Post Reply