CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[onewithhim]

onewithhim,
"begotten" requires an act or action.
An act or action is required to become begotten.
The Eternal Son of God never was begotten.He is eternal
Jesus was begotten.He was also made flesh by the Eternal God the Son or Eternal Word.
Also note The Word was with God and the Word was God,this being the Eternal Son of God indivisible with the Father and the Spirit.
In the actual sense
The God the Son is not begotten but eternal.
Jesus is not eternal but begotten.
In the spiritual sense
Jesus said I and my Father are one

Jesus was begotten. There are several verses that show us this, one being a verse that most Christians can readily quote: John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world that he sent his only-begotten Son...(etc.)." Apparently the inspirer of the Bible thinks that the Son is begotten. In fact, the only one that Jehovah created directly without the Son's help. The early church fathers called God the only un-begotten Person. Everyone else was begotten. They distinguished between "God" and Jesus Christ.

Your making Jesus into a dual-personage is not scriptural. If Jesus was begotten, it includes any time he was in heaven before coming to the earth. He was ALREADY "begotten" before he came down. What you say makes everything complicated. The truth is not complicated.

When Jesus said "I and my Father are one," he was referring to the fact that they are united in thought and deed, just as he and the disciples are "one" with him and his Father. (See John 17:21-23, if you would.) Are the disciples also "God"?


.

[onewithhim]

onewithhim,
Jesus is not 'in the actual sense" a Trinity origin being-God
This is where everyone wants to place him and is why the arguments continue.
God the Son -Trinity and son of God -Begotten son are not the same beings.
God the Son is God as is the Word is God.
Spiritually ,as Paul said,Jesus is God.

Huh? Where did Paul say that Jesus is God?

[EarthScienceguy]

The challenge is for those that do not believe that Jesus was God. Because without Jesus being God there can be no such thing as Christianity.

Christianity is based on the fact that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice to pay the penalty for the sin of man. The only way that Jesus could be perfect was if He was God. Isreal's sacrificial system was based on perfect lambs being sacrificed for the sin of men. The lamb had to be perfect to an acceptable sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:11-18

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

This is the reason why we do not offer sacrifices in Christianity. Jesus was the one sacrifice for all time for the payment of man's sin. So only God could live a perfect life.

And only God could write on men's hearts.

Belief in the trinity is an integral part of Christianity. To be a Christian one has to believe that Jesus lived a perfect life and died for your sins and must worship Him as God.

[Eloi]

If Jesus was a sacrifice to God, the logical conclusion is JESUS IS NOT GOD.

Actually, he is the high priest who presents the value of that offering in front of God himself. That biblical truth has nothing to do with a "Jesus God".

Heb. 5:4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”
7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.

[Eloi]

There are many "weird" (trying to find a soft word) implications after the idea of a "Jesus God":

1) God died
2) humans saw God
3) God is a "Passover Lamb"
4) Jesus lied all the time about God

... It would be a very long list of biblical inconsistencies. Every intelligent person should give himself the opportunity to think seriously about what the Word of God really teaches ... regardless of what religious leaders, theologians, and biblical scholars have taught for centuries and centuries.

There are many very smart people out there, but they have gotten stuck in some preconceptions that they learned by tradition. There are also many who are not so intelligent, but who God gave clarity in their mind so that they realized without much effort, the logical conclusions of what the Bible teaches.

1 Cor. 1:26 For YOU behold his calling of YOU, brothers, that not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, 29 in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God. 30 But it is due to him that YOU are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom; 31 that it may be just as it is written: “He that boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.”

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Eloi in post #364]

You missed the keywords in my sentence. He was the perfect sacrifice not just a sacrifice. My point is that there is no one perfect but God. And Jesus had to be the perfect sacrifice.

Actually, he is the high priest who presents the value of that offering in front of God himself. That biblical truth has nothing to do with a "Jesus God".

The value of what offering, if Jesus was not perfect then there would be no value to the offering. So what are you saying the offering would be.

Heb. 5:4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”

7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.

Jesus is a priest who is the one the intercedes on behalf of man. The trinity is one essence but three persons. Jesus intercedes for man to God the Father. And just like Melchizedek was never appointed to be a priest by being in the line of Arron. Melchizedek was greater than Abraham because Abraham gave Melchizedek an offering. So is Jesus greater than any other.

Now in the second paragraph of your quote. In Philippians 2:7 Paul tells us that Jesus emptied Himself of His divinity when He came here on Earth and become obedient to God the Father. Jesus did not consider Himself equal with God the Father while He was here on earth because He emptied Himself of that. Jesus being 100% God and 100% man felt everything that any man would feel at the prospect of being crucified and everything else He was going to go through.

Verse 9. "After he had been made perfect." This is the great hope that we have as Christians that we will have a new body that will be free from sin. That is our great hope that we will have a body like Christ's. Jesus went through all of our struggles even a body that was bent towards sin and yet He knew no sin.

That was a great verse that describes Jesus as God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #363]

The challenge is for those that do not believe that Jesus was God. Because without Jesus being God there can be no such thing as Christianity.

Belief in the trinity is an integral part of Christianity.

If that is so, then those who, after receiving the promised Holy Spirit, told the Good News, as recorded in Acts, missed the boat.

I think not.

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #364]

You missed the keywords in my sentence. He was the perfect sacrifice not just a sacrifice. My point is that there is no one perfect but God. And Jesus had to be the perfect sacrifice.

(...)

The value of what offering, if Jesus was not perfect then there would be no value to the offering. So what are you saying the offering would be.

Somehow you think that Jesus was perfect, and a perfect sacrifice because he was God. That is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus was perfect because he was born as a human in a different way from the rest of the humans; actually, he came from heaven where he was a whole spiritual being next to his Father and God.

Like Checkpoint just told you, not even one of the first century christians even suggested, ever, what you are saying.

Heb. 8:1 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. 5 These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to construct the tent, was given the divine command: For He says: “See that you make all things after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.” 6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.

PD: I don't see how in your mind, from this:

Heb. 5:7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.

... follows this: That was a great verse that describes Jesus as God.

[onewithhim]

The challenge is for those that do not believe that Jesus was God. Because without Jesus being God there can be no such thing as Christianity.

I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. The Bible says that God [Jehovah] would SEND the Messiah down from Heaven to carry out His [God's] will. (Isaiah 61:1,2)

Jesus stated clearly that he was not God but "God's Son." (John 10:36) He called the Father "my God." (John 20:17)

You are saying that God couldn't do those things and provide for the salvation of the world? He Himself would have to come down? That is impossible. No, God cannot do all things. He cannot lie, He cannot die, He cannot fit His magnificent glory onto this speck of dust of a planet. After all, He created the entire universe. If you think He can reduce Himself to a speck of dust on a speck of dust, you have a strange idea about our almighty Creator. He decided what to do after Adam sinned, and He put it into action immediately, foretelling the coming of a Savior as early as Genesis 3:15. All that the Savior is required to do is obey his God and Father and carry out his assignment. That was a huge undertaking, and he did it, as perfectly as it could be done. God Almighty did not have to sacrifice Himself.

Because Jesus successfully ransomed mankind, "God exalted him to a superior position, and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name," and all things "to the glory of God, the Father." (Philippians 2:9,11)

The "challenge" is for you to explain why God Almighty Who is more powerful than the entire universe would have to come down here to this little planet. (He had to send another divine being because no one can see Him and live. Exodus 33:20.)

Now you say that the only way that Jesus could be perfect is if he was God. How is that Scriptural? I think that is your idea. When God created everything, He created it perfect (Deuteronomy 32:4---"The Rock, perfect is his activity.") You underestimate God if you think He creates anything of inferior quality. Why would He say, after He created things, that it was "good"? (Genesis 1: 10,12,18,21,25,31) A perfect God would not create something that was not perfect. He brought Jesus into existence, eons before the creation of anything else, and of course the archangel that eventually became Jesus was perfect. He didn't need to be God to be perfect. Adam and Eve were created perfect, and that is why they were condemned for disobeying---because they understood the command to not eat from one tree, perfectly.



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[Revelations won]

We now have about 368 posts on this topic and from my observation it appears that much of the opposing views stem from a failure to fully understand the true nature and corporeal character of the "Godhead".

The "Godhead" consist of God the Father, His firstborn son Jesus Christ (Jehovah) and the Holy Ghost. Three separate and distinct personages, but ONE IN UNITY.

The creation plan for this earth was the plan of God the Father, but the actual implementation was done under his direction by His firstborn Son Jesus Christ who is Jehovah. For those who fail to clearly understand this point, I refer you too the topic "Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament".

We should always remember that our savior and redeemer was chosen and "Foreordained" by God the Father before the foundations of this earth were laid.

We should always remember that he, Jesus Christ was a person who Had "glory" with the Father in Heaven before he was sent to this earth to receive a physical body.

We should always remember that he by his obedience to the Father's will will bring additional "Glory" to the Father by providing the "atonement" and resurrection of all mankind.

We should always remember that he came not to do his will, but to fulfill his Father's will.

We should always remember that though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and "being made perfect became there author of our salvation.

We should always remember that there is no other name under heaven whereby man can be saved.

We should always remember that there is only one mediator between God theFather and man, Christ Jesus.

We should always remember that he (Christ) will inherit ALL that the Father hath!

I would hope that all might humbly ponder and appreciate all that our savior who is the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL who is our creator and all that he has done for us, for HE IS the very EMMANUEL OR GOD WITH US and is LORD OF lords AND KING OF kings!

Kindest regards,
RW