CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tigger2 in post #411]

The Athanasian Creed says that all three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, none greater or lesser than another. Then Jesus must've been sniffing something when he said, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) The Father was still greater when Paul wrote I Corinthians 11:3, and Jesus was back in heaven by then. So the Creed contradicts the Bible and Jesus' own words. It's a good idea to discard all of the creeds of men and study the Bible more closely.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #422]
Was Jesus on something? (Post #421)

[theQuestion]

Found this from a group in MeWe.com, which rather says it ALL!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to theQuestion in post #424]

It would help us a lot if you would condense what you read into your own words, to explain to us your point.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tigger2 in post #411]

The Athanasian Creed says that all three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, none greater or lesser than another. Then Jesus must've been sniffing something when he said, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) The Father was still greater when Paul wrote I Corinthians 11:3, and Jesus was back in heaven by then. So the Creed contradicts the Bible and Jesus' own words. It's a good idea to discard all of the creeds of men and study the Bible more closely.

Are there any comments on my comment?

[Revelations won]

To All,

Tigger 2 in the OP has asked many great questions which it appears that clear answers are still forthcoming.

Onewithhim in post #421 has given a very clear reply.

"The Athanasian Creed says that all three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, none greater or lesser than another. Then Jesus must've been sniffing something when he said, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) The Father was still greater when Paul wrote I Corinthians 11:3, and Jesus was back in heaven by then. So the Creed contradicts the Bible and Jesus' own words. It's a good idea to discard all of the creeds of men and study the Bible more closely."

I say Kudo's to Onewithhim great answer and I believe you response is right on target!

Thank you Onewithhim.

kind regards,
RW

[Miles]

[Replying to tigger2 in post #411]

The Athanasian Creed says that all three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, none greater or lesser than another. Then Jesus must've been sniffing something when he said, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) The Father was still greater when Paul wrote I Corinthians 11:3, and Jesus was back in heaven by then. So the Creed contradicts the Bible and Jesus' own words. It's a good idea to discard all of the creeds of men and study the Bible more closely.

Are there any comments on my comment?

Only that it should be remembered that the concept of the Trinity is a fabrication of mortal men, and that it only became a statement of faith by their vote. Had they voted the other way Christians would not be giving the Trinity the time of day.


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tigger2 in post #411]

The Athanasian Creed says that all three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, none greater or lesser than another. Then Jesus must've been sniffing something when he said, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) The Father was still greater when Paul wrote I Corinthians 11:3, and Jesus was back in heaven by then. So the Creed contradicts the Bible and Jesus' own words. It's a good idea to discard all of the creeds of men and study the Bible more closely.

Are there any comments on my comment?

Only that it should be remembered that the concept of the Trinity is a fabrication of mortal men, and that it only became a statement of faith by their vote. Had they voted the other way Christians would not be giving the Trinity the time of day.


.

Your and RW's comments are appreciated. I hope some others will take the time to respond as well. Could it be that most Trinitarians have no answers?