CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
………………………………..
Athanasian Creed:
"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy
"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.
………………………………....
Challenges from scripture itself:
(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.
(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............
(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."
(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
……………………………….............
(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:
“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................
Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):
(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
and,
………………………………....................
(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................
(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................
(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�
……………………………….................
(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.
Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!
CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Moderator: Moderators
-
Revelations won
- Sage
- Posts: 921
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 32 times
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #351Dear Wootah,
You said: "[Replying to Revelations won in post #347]
Add to this the fact that Christ clearly existed even prior to the foundations of the earth were even created, for he verily was foreordained prior to the creation of this earth:
Can you please describe the order of creation?
Yes, it is very simple. Christ was the first born of all the children of God who is clearly according to scripture is the Father of the spirits of ALL mankind.
kind regards,
RW
You said: "[Replying to Revelations won in post #347]
Add to this the fact that Christ clearly existed even prior to the foundations of the earth were even created, for he verily was foreordained prior to the creation of this earth:
Can you please describe the order of creation?
Yes, it is very simple. Christ was the first born of all the children of God who is clearly according to scripture is the Father of the spirits of ALL mankind.
kind regards,
RW
-
Overcomer
- Guru
- Posts: 1330
- Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
- Location: Canada
- Has thanked: 32 times
- Been thanked: 66 times
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #352Revelations won wrote:
There is a Greek word for "first-created." It's protoktizo. This word was in use at the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians. However, he did not use that word. He used "prototikto" which means "first-born". The difference is crucial. To say Jesus was "first-born" rather than "first-created" is to say that he had preeminence over all.
In Ps. 89:27, we read that God makes David his first-born, the most exalted king in the earth. Obviously, we aren't talking about the first-created, but the one who God places first in importance.
That's what is meant when Christ is called first-born. He is supreme. He is first in eminence. And rightly so, given that he is the second person of the Trinity and came to earth as God Incarnate.
When the Bible speaks of Christ being the first-born in Col. 1:15, it does not mean that he was the first of all the created children. It means that he was the first in preeminence, that he was superior to all others. Consider this:Christ was the first born of all the children of God who is clearly according to scripture is the Father of the spirits of ALL mankind.
There is a Greek word for "first-created." It's protoktizo. This word was in use at the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians. However, he did not use that word. He used "prototikto" which means "first-born". The difference is crucial. To say Jesus was "first-born" rather than "first-created" is to say that he had preeminence over all.
In Ps. 89:27, we read that God makes David his first-born, the most exalted king in the earth. Obviously, we aren't talking about the first-created, but the one who God places first in importance.
That's what is meant when Christ is called first-born. He is supreme. He is first in eminence. And rightly so, given that he is the second person of the Trinity and came to earth as God Incarnate.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #353Overcomer,
Can you clarify your last paragraph?
How do you conclude Jesus is the second person of the Trinity?
Does not the Infinite Son /God the Son hold the second person of the Trinity position /title?
Who then holds the Creator Son position /title?
Jesus could not hold the title of infinite Son when he told his apostles when asked a question"only my Father knows".Only the infinite has infinite knowledge.
And when asked by 2 apostles to sit next to him in heaven Jesus replied it was not his decision.
It appears these two answers Jesus gave disqualifies Jesus from having Trinity origin characteristics.
Can you clarify your last paragraph?
How do you conclude Jesus is the second person of the Trinity?
Does not the Infinite Son /God the Son hold the second person of the Trinity position /title?
Who then holds the Creator Son position /title?
Jesus could not hold the title of infinite Son when he told his apostles when asked a question"only my Father knows".Only the infinite has infinite knowledge.
And when asked by 2 apostles to sit next to him in heaven Jesus replied it was not his decision.
It appears these two answers Jesus gave disqualifies Jesus from having Trinity origin characteristics.
-
Overcomer
- Guru
- Posts: 1330
- Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
- Location: Canada
- Has thanked: 32 times
- Been thanked: 66 times
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #354Earl wrote:
When Jesus came to earth, he set aside his divine rights, privileges and abilities. We read that in Phil. 2:7 that he emptied himself, that is, divested himself of those qualities to live life as a man. Therefore, when Jesus says, "Only my Father knows", he is speaking as Jesus the man, NOT Jesus the God, during his time on earth.
Re: the decision about who sits beside Jesus in heaven, I see nothing in it that denies his deity. While Jesus, as God the Son, is identical in both essence and attributes with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, he has a different role from them. God the Father may have the right to decide who sits where in heaven, but that doesn't mean that Jesus isn't ontologically one with him.
What's interesting about the title of Creator is this: All three members of the Trinity are involved in creation. In Genesis 1:1–2, for example, we read that the Spirit of God—the Holy Spirit—hovered over the primordial waters at the moment of creation.
John 1:1–3 refers to God the Father and the Son (“the Word”) at the beginning of creation, indicating that the Father made all things through the Son and that nothing was created apart from the agency of the Son.
In many places, Scripture attributes the work of creation particularly to the Father (see Eph. 3:9, for instance). But it is also ascribed to Jesus in Col. 1:16. '
The JW's New World Translation was written specifically to suit its doctrines which means that they have altered most of the key verses that point to Christ's deity and the reality of the Trinity. If you read a legitimately-translated Bible such as the NIV or NASB or NRSV or CEV, you will find some 1,000 verses that demonstrate that Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Triune Godhead.
See here:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bo ... rinity.cfm
https://www.josh.org/mean-god-trinity/? ... vEQAvD_BwE
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotion ... e-trinity/
And this one speaks directly to Christ as creator:
https://creation.com/jesus-christ-our-c ... he-trinity
Thanks for the questions, Earl. I'm going to answer them in reverse.Can you clarify your last paragraph?
How do you conclude Jesus is the second person of the Trinity?
Does not the Infinite Son /God the Son hold the second person of the Trinity position /title?
Who then holds the Creator Son position /title?
Jesus could not hold the title of infinite Son when he told his apostles when asked a question"only my Father knows".Only the infinite has infinite knowledge.
And when asked by 2 apostles to sit next to him in heaven Jesus replied it was not his decision.
It appears these two answers Jesus gave disqualifies Jesus from having Trinity origin characteristics.
When Jesus came to earth, he set aside his divine rights, privileges and abilities. We read that in Phil. 2:7 that he emptied himself, that is, divested himself of those qualities to live life as a man. Therefore, when Jesus says, "Only my Father knows", he is speaking as Jesus the man, NOT Jesus the God, during his time on earth.
Re: the decision about who sits beside Jesus in heaven, I see nothing in it that denies his deity. While Jesus, as God the Son, is identical in both essence and attributes with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, he has a different role from them. God the Father may have the right to decide who sits where in heaven, but that doesn't mean that Jesus isn't ontologically one with him.
What's interesting about the title of Creator is this: All three members of the Trinity are involved in creation. In Genesis 1:1–2, for example, we read that the Spirit of God—the Holy Spirit—hovered over the primordial waters at the moment of creation.
John 1:1–3 refers to God the Father and the Son (“the Word”) at the beginning of creation, indicating that the Father made all things through the Son and that nothing was created apart from the agency of the Son.
In many places, Scripture attributes the work of creation particularly to the Father (see Eph. 3:9, for instance). But it is also ascribed to Jesus in Col. 1:16. '
The JW's New World Translation was written specifically to suit its doctrines which means that they have altered most of the key verses that point to Christ's deity and the reality of the Trinity. If you read a legitimately-translated Bible such as the NIV or NASB or NRSV or CEV, you will find some 1,000 verses that demonstrate that Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Triune Godhead.
See here:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bo ... rinity.cfm
https://www.josh.org/mean-god-trinity/? ... vEQAvD_BwE
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotion ... e-trinity/
And this one speaks directly to Christ as creator:
https://creation.com/jesus-christ-our-c ... he-trinity
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #355Overcomer,
I agree that Jesus emptied himself only to be born a man live as a man but thereafter recognize he is the son of God in a man's body as was when Jesus asked the apostles who am I.
Jesus fully understood who he was when he asked them who he was.He agreed with Peter.
Is it your assumption that Jesus never knew he was the only begotten son?
What divine rights,privileges and abilities did Jesus set aside after he began his ministry?
"He is speaking as Jesus the man" Is it not understood that all three persons of deity know the exact thing at any and all times?Deity never can relinquish their knowledge of who they are or they are not Deity.They would not be all knowing.
The second person of Deity could never have relinquished knowledge,there would be no Trinity.
Thus we have a begotten son who was begotten from the First person of Deity,God the Father made flesh by the Second person of Deity,God the Son,the Word.
This way all three ,the Trinity ,never looses consciousness of their origin,just Jesus at his birth and early years.
This is my remedy to the loss of identity at Jesus's birth while the Trinity never does.
I agree that Jesus emptied himself only to be born a man live as a man but thereafter recognize he is the son of God in a man's body as was when Jesus asked the apostles who am I.
Jesus fully understood who he was when he asked them who he was.He agreed with Peter.
Is it your assumption that Jesus never knew he was the only begotten son?
What divine rights,privileges and abilities did Jesus set aside after he began his ministry?
"He is speaking as Jesus the man" Is it not understood that all three persons of deity know the exact thing at any and all times?Deity never can relinquish their knowledge of who they are or they are not Deity.They would not be all knowing.
The second person of Deity could never have relinquished knowledge,there would be no Trinity.
Thus we have a begotten son who was begotten from the First person of Deity,God the Father made flesh by the Second person of Deity,God the Son,the Word.
This way all three ,the Trinity ,never looses consciousness of their origin,just Jesus at his birth and early years.
This is my remedy to the loss of identity at Jesus's birth while the Trinity never does.
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 10904
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1538 times
- Been thanked: 439 times
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #356[Replying to earl in post #355]
earl, I can't tell if you are for or against the Trinity. You say some things that show that the Trinity doesn't hold up as Truth, and yet you say other things that are not in line with a belief that the Trinity is false. What exactly do you believe about the Trinity?
.
earl, I can't tell if you are for or against the Trinity. You say some things that show that the Trinity doesn't hold up as Truth, and yet you say other things that are not in line with a belief that the Trinity is false. What exactly do you believe about the Trinity?
.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #357onewithhim,
The debate on the Trinity will go on for another century is my best guess.
The cosmology of God is complicated,more than most think.
I have observed so many people fail a thorough research of the cosmology of God.
I posted yesterday in the apologetics on What is the Word. Some of it may clarify your question.
The three eternal Father,Son and Spirit are indivisible.Since there are three it is common to regard them as a trinity.
At any time one of them is absent from their indivisibility then there no longer is a trinity or God.
God is only a word symbol the reflects all three,Father,Son,Spirit.
The absence of any one then there is no God.
It is the three that make one God not three Gods---being finite has it's problems understanding this 3 into 1 relationship.
And since the three as one is cosmological ,finite grasp is limited for some.
All three deities are an eternal trinity -indivisible.They are understood as God, a monotheistic God not a trinity of three
gods.
This is why more than a revelation occurred at the council of Nicea when Athanasius held his ground.
The ongoing controversy is really about the identity of the Son of God and the confusion of the title 'only begotten son'.
God the Son and only begotten son are (in the actual sense)not the same.But in the (spiritual sense) are the same.In both, function as one.
,
The debate on the Trinity will go on for another century is my best guess.
The cosmology of God is complicated,more than most think.
I have observed so many people fail a thorough research of the cosmology of God.
I posted yesterday in the apologetics on What is the Word. Some of it may clarify your question.
The three eternal Father,Son and Spirit are indivisible.Since there are three it is common to regard them as a trinity.
At any time one of them is absent from their indivisibility then there no longer is a trinity or God.
God is only a word symbol the reflects all three,Father,Son,Spirit.
The absence of any one then there is no God.
It is the three that make one God not three Gods---being finite has it's problems understanding this 3 into 1 relationship.
And since the three as one is cosmological ,finite grasp is limited for some.
All three deities are an eternal trinity -indivisible.They are understood as God, a monotheistic God not a trinity of three
gods.
This is why more than a revelation occurred at the council of Nicea when Athanasius held his ground.
The ongoing controversy is really about the identity of the Son of God and the confusion of the title 'only begotten son'.
God the Son and only begotten son are (in the actual sense)not the same.But in the (spiritual sense) are the same.In both, function as one.
,
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #358onewithhim,
"begotten" requires an act or action.
An act or action is required to become begotten.
The Eternal Son of God never was begotten.He is eternal
Jesus was begotten.He was also made flesh by the Eternal God the Son or Eternal Word.
Also note The Word was with God and the Word was God,this being the Eternal Son of God indivisible with the Father and the Spirit.
In the actual sense
The God the Son is not begotten but eternal.
Jesus is not eternal but begotten.
In the spiritual sense
Jesus said I and my Father are one
"begotten" requires an act or action.
An act or action is required to become begotten.
The Eternal Son of God never was begotten.He is eternal
Jesus was begotten.He was also made flesh by the Eternal God the Son or Eternal Word.
Also note The Word was with God and the Word was God,this being the Eternal Son of God indivisible with the Father and the Spirit.
In the actual sense
The God the Son is not begotten but eternal.
Jesus is not eternal but begotten.
In the spiritual sense
Jesus said I and my Father are one
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #359onewithhim,
Jesus is not 'in the actual sense" a Trinity origin being-God
This is where everyone wants to place him and is why the arguments continue.
God the Son -Trinity and son of God -Begotten son are not the same beings.
God the Son is God as is the Word is God.
Spiritually ,as Paul said,Jesus is God.
Jesus is not 'in the actual sense" a Trinity origin being-God
This is where everyone wants to place him and is why the arguments continue.
God the Son -Trinity and son of God -Begotten son are not the same beings.
God the Son is God as is the Word is God.
Spiritually ,as Paul said,Jesus is God.
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 10904
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1538 times
- Been thanked: 439 times
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #360But Jesus addressed "God" as ONLY his Father. So "God" does not encompass three Persons. He said "YOU are the ONLY TRUE GOD" to his Father, as he prayed. (John 17:3)earl wrote: ↑Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:20 pm onewithhim,
The debate on the Trinity will go on for another century is my best guess.
The cosmology of God is complicated,more than most think.
I have observed so many people fail a thorough research of the cosmology of God.
I posted yesterday in the apologetics on What is the Word. Some of it may clarify your question.
The three eternal Father,Son and Spirit are indivisible.Since there are three it is common to regard them as a trinity.
At any time one of them is absent from their indivisibility then there no longer is a trinity or God.
God is only a word symbol the reflects all three,Father,Son,Spirit.
The absence of any one then there is no God.
It is the three that make one God not three Gods---being finite has it's problems understanding this 3 into 1 relationship.
And since the three as one is cosmological ,finite grasp is limited for some.
All three deities are an eternal trinity -indivisible.They are understood as God, a monotheistic God not a trinity of three
gods.
This is why more than a revelation occurred at the council of Nicea when Athanasius held his ground.
The ongoing controversy is really about the identity of the Son of God and the confusion of the title 'only begotten son'.
God the Son and only begotten son are (in the actual sense)not the same.But in the (spiritual sense) are the same.In both, function as one.
,
God is not as complicated as many people think. It's pretty simple.
1) First we see just who God is by checking out Psalm 83:18, KJV.
"That men may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth."
2) Then we go to Jesus' own words:
"...I said 'I am God's Son'" (John 10:36b) Again, he did not include "God's Son" in with "God." "God" is separate from God's Son.
"The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father [God] doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19) The Son LEARNS from God, the Father. If Jesus was God also, there would be nothing he would have to learn.
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God." (John 20:17b) This is very clear, is it not? Jesus considers his Father to be his God, whom he himself worships. And this wasn't only while he was on the earth. When he went back to heaven, he still referred to the Father as "my God":
"The one that conquers---I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God,...and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine." (Revelation 3:12)
So it's not so complicated. One God---the Father, Jehovah
God's Son---Jesus
(The Holy Spirit is not a person but a thing, Jehovah's power by which He accomplishes things.)
