My, God, my God, why?

[placebofactor]

The following will likely open a can of worms. But it’s a subject that must be fully understood, not through the eyes of commentators or religious organizations, but understood by the authority of the Holy Spirit. Before you answer, consider all the details that led up to this moment.

It concerns Matthew 27:46. We find Jesus hanging from the cross, looking down at a mob of Jews, Gentiles, and religious leaders who hated him. These were people he taught, healed, and fed. Before he died, he made two statements. The first,

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” The word forsaken means to abandon completely, to turn one’s back on someone, and walk away.

His last words are found in Luke 23:46, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” Then his spirit left him.

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

[Capbook]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

The cup that Jesus asked to pass was the full force of the wrath of God the Father toward sin. This cup that Jesus was to drink would cause His human nature to be tortured and die. Even more than this, it would cause His divine nature to be separated from His Father temporarily.
2 Corinthians 5:21 To know no sin is to be free from sin. He says, then, that Christ, while he was entirely exempt from sin, was made sin for us. It is commonly remarked, that sin here denotes an expiatory sacrifice for sin, and in the same way the Latin's term it, piaculum. Paul, too, has in this, and other passages, borrowed this phrase from the Hebrews, among whom (asham) denotes an expiatory sacrifice, as well as an offense or crime.

God uses thick darkness to veil His Glory:
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Deu 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Jesus was not made sin for us; he was made a sin offering for us. "A Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Jesus Christ was without spot or blemish when he died. Had he had any sin, his, yours, or mine, he would have been a blemished sacrifice. If blemished, the Father would have rejected the sacrifice of his body and blood. Because the Father did not reject him, he had to be without spot or blemish. It's his shed blood that covers our sin.

His shed blood justifies us, it saves us from the wrath to come and makes atonement for our sins.

1 Peter 1:18-19, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." Neither would be have been redeemed if Jesus died with sin.

If the wages of sin is death, did Christ really die in our place on the cross?

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Christ laid down His life for our sins. Death is the penalty for sin, and that is precisely the price Christ paid in our place.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2 Cor 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

The cup that Jesus asked to pass was the full force of the wrath of God the Father toward sin. This cup that Jesus was to drink would cause His human nature to be tortured and die. Even more than this, it would cause His divine nature to be separated from His Father temporarily.
2 Corinthians 5:21 To know no sin is to be free from sin. He says, then, that Christ, while he was entirely exempt from sin, was made sin for us. It is commonly remarked, that sin here denotes an expiatory sacrifice for sin, and in the same way the Latin's term it, piaculum. Paul, too, has in this, and other passages, borrowed this phrase from the Hebrews, among whom (asham) denotes an expiatory sacrifice, as well as an offense or crime.

God uses thick darkness to veil His Glory:
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Deu 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Jesus was not made sin for us; he was made a sin offering for us. "A Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Jesus Christ was without spot or blemish when he died. Had he had any sin, his, yours, or mine, he would have been a blemished sacrifice. If blemished, the Father would have rejected the sacrifice of his body and blood. Because the Father did not reject him, he had to be without spot or blemish. It's his shed blood that covers our sin.

His shed blood justifies us, it saves us from the wrath to come and makes atonement for our sins.

1 Peter 1:18-19, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." Neither would be have been redeemed if Jesus died with sin.

If the wages of sin is death, did Christ really die in our place on the cross?

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Christ laid down His life for our sins. Death is the penalty for sin, and that is precisely the price Christ paid in our place.

Correct: Jesus laid down his life to redeem us from our sins. He took upon his body our punishment. Only by the shedding of blood, his death could our sins be forgiven. Jesus was falsely accused and murdered by men. He would not have gone to the cross if the Jews had received him as their King, and High Priest. There would have been no reason for him to die for us had they received him as the promised Messiah. Only because they rejected him did he volunteer to take upon himself our punishment and die for us. There was no other way to save believers unless there was shedding of blood, that was the Law.

[APAK]

[Replying to placebofactor]
You said ".....He would not have gone to the cross if the Jews had received him as their King, and High Priest. There would have been no reason for him to die for us had they received him as the promised Messiah. Only because they rejected him did he volunteer to take upon himself our punishment and die for us. There was no other way to save believers unless there was shedding of blood, that was the Law...."
--------------------------------------------------------

I take issue with these last sentences of yours.

If the Jews accepted Christ, and of course they would not have, as God foreknew their position before-hand, Christ still would have gone to the Cross for all nations and also the Jews.

Acceptance of Christ by the Jews is one thing, to bring salvation to them, Christ had to go to the Cross to still redeem them, in order for them to become saved. No Cross, and shed blood, no legal payment or atonement for sin under the Law, and therefore no salvation. Accepting Christ does not save them, as it does not for the rest of the nations. Redemption must come before salvation.

And the plan of God was always for all nations to be saved, regardless of the acceptance of the Jews toward Christ as their King. The Hebrews and Israelites were always the stepping stone to redemption of sin and the opportunity for all mankind to become saved.

[myth-one.com]

Christ laid down His life for our sins. Death is the penalty for sin, and that is precisely the price Christ paid in our place.

Wrong. There are two "deaths" described in the Scriptures, the first and the second.

Every human, including Jesus Christ, is appointed to die their first death:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The "second death" is the wages for our sins:

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such thesecond death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Jesus' death on the cross was His first appointed death as He was born as a man.

That death is not what saves us.

<<<<<<<<<<<<< Here is what saves us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jesus lived a sinless human life as a man under the Old Testament Covenant between God and mankind. Under the Old Testament the wages of sin was the second death. But Jesus never sinned, thus He became an heir unto everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. In fact, Timothy wrote that Jesus was the only human to gain an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament:

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God then allowed Jesus to offer or share His inheritance with those humans who believe in Him as their Savior.

Romans 8:16-17
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Thus salvation became a gift of God through Jesus Christ:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus ...

[Capbook]

Christ laid down His life for our sins. Death is the penalty for sin, and that is precisely the price Christ paid in our place.

Wrong. There are two "deaths" described in the Scriptures, the first and the second.

Every human, including Jesus Christ, is appointed to die their first death:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The death of Jesus was for us to have a hope to be reconciled with God, and the end of killing clean animals for sin offering. Besides I believe that there are still living believers whom would see Jesus second coming. Text below says, Jesus died for our sins, our death penalty because of our sins Jesus take it.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

The "second death" is the wages for our sins:

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such thesecond death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Jesus' death on the cross was His first appointed death as He was born as a man.

That death is not what saves us.

Second death are for the sinners, resurrected after the 1,000 years, deceived by Satan to encompass the saints in the Holy City new Jerusalem, but fires from heaven will devoured them.
Rev 20:5-10
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV


<<<<<<<<<<<<< Here is what saves us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jesus lived a sinless human life as a man under the Old Testament Covenant between God and mankind. Under the Old Testament the wages of sin was the second death. But Jesus never sinned, thus He became an heir unto everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. In fact, Timothy wrote that Jesus was the only human to gain an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament:

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God then allowed Jesus to offer or share His inheritance with those humans who believe in Him as their Savior.

Romans 8:16-17
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Thus salvation became a gift of God through Jesus Christ:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus ...

Yes, for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.