My, God, my God, why?

[placebofactor]

The following will likely open a can of worms. But it’s a subject that must be fully understood, not through the eyes of commentators or religious organizations, but understood by the authority of the Holy Spirit. Before you answer, consider all the details that led up to this moment.

It concerns Matthew 27:46. We find Jesus hanging from the cross, looking down at a mob of Jews, Gentiles, and religious leaders who hated him. These were people he taught, healed, and fed. Before he died, he made two statements. The first,

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” The word forsaken means to abandon completely, to turn one’s back on someone, and walk away.

His last words are found in Luke 23:46, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” Then his spirit left him.

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

[theophile]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

I believe if we examine the following verses closely, it should settle this discussion.

Before you read these verses, note that Jesus used the pronoun I six times.

John 10:17-18, "Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No mantakes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Jesus is telling the Jews, I will shortly be crucified, and that they should not claim he was being abandoned by his Father. He is also telling the Jewish rulers, don't think you're putting me to death, I do it of my own free will. The proof that I will give you is, by my own power I shall raise it (his body) up in three days, wounded and crucified, I will raise my body from the grave. After he said this to these doubters, they accused him of having a devil and is mad. But Jesus proved them wrong when he, by his own power, raised himself from death to life.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

I believe if we examine the following verses closely, it should settle this discussion.

Before you read these verses, note that Jesus used the pronoun I six times.

John 10:17-18, "Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No mantakes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Jesus is telling the Jews, I will shortly be crucified, and that they should not claim he was being abandoned by his Father. He is also telling the Jewish rulers, don't think you're putting me to death, I do it of my own free will. The proof that I will give you is, by my own power I shall raise it (his body) up in three days, wounded and crucified, I will raise my body from the grave. After he said this to these doubters, they accused him of having a devil and is mad. But Jesus proved them wrong when he, by his own power, raised himself from death to life.

Does anyone really believe that a dead man can resurrect himself? Ridiculous.

[theophile]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

I believe if we examine the following verses closely, it should settle this discussion.

Before you read these verses, note that Jesus used the pronoun I six times.

John 10:17-18, "Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No mantakes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Jesus is telling the Jews, I will shortly be crucified, and that they should not claim he was being abandoned by his Father. He is also telling the Jewish rulers, don't think you're putting me to death, I do it of my own free will. The proof that I will give you is, by my own power I shall raise it (his body) up in three days, wounded and crucified, I will raise my body from the grave. After he said this to these doubters, they accused him of having a devil and is mad. But Jesus proved them wrong when he, by his own power, raised himself from death to life.

This is a nice passage but I don't know if it settles things. I think this passage should be taken as a more general concept versus about the crucifixion itself, and what you draw from that application. Jesus is talking about what it means to be in the spirit here. About the way of love, the shepherd, or whatever you want to call it. So while yes, the crucifixion is an instance of Jesus laying down his life and living out this way, what Jesus is talking about here is the broader concept and what it entails.

What is different about the crucifixion and why I'd want to separate it from this verse is the context in which Jesus lives out this way. i.e., the context of a fallen world versus that of the kingdom... A world of shepherds and sheep or a world with only wolves...

The crucifixion is a perversion of the more pure version of this economy that we see, for instance, in communion. Where Jesus' body and blood is given in true love and fellowship, in better line with the verse that you cite.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

I believe if we examine the following verses closely, it should settle this discussion.

Before you read these verses, note that Jesus used the pronoun I six times.

John 10:17-18, "Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No mantakes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Jesus is telling the Jews, I will shortly be crucified, and that they should not claim he was being abandoned by his Father. He is also telling the Jewish rulers, don't think you're putting me to death, I do it of my own free will. The proof that I will give you is, by my own power I shall raise it (his body) up in three days, wounded and crucified, I will raise my body from the grave. After he said this to these doubters, they accused him of having a devil and is mad. But Jesus proved them wrong when he, by his own power, raised himself from death to life.

Does anyone really believe that a dead man can resurrect himself? Ridiculous.

First, let me say history reveals that there were over 500 witnesses to this miracle of resurrection. And just because they are dead, their testimonies will still stand up in any court of law. Now let me ask you, what's your evidence he did not resurrect? Ahhhhh, let me answer it for you, "I don't have any!"

Hmmm! Just what I thought, you don't have any!

[Capbook]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

The cup that Jesus asked to pass was the full force of the wrath of God the Father toward sin. This cup that Jesus was to drink would cause His human nature to be tortured and die. Even more than this, it would cause His divine nature to be separated from His Father temporarily.
2 Corinthians 5:21 To know no sin is to be free from sin. He says, then, that Christ, while he was entirely exempt from sin, was made sin for us. It is commonly remarked, that sin here denotes an expiatory sacrifice for sin, and in the same way the Latin's term it, piaculum. Paul, too, has in this, and other passages, borrowed this phrase from the Hebrews, among whom (asham) denotes an expiatory sacrifice, as well as an offense or crime.

God uses thick darkness to veil His Glory:
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Deu 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

[Capbook]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

The cup that Jesus asked to pass was the full force of the wrath of God the Father toward sin. This cup that Jesus was to drink would cause His human nature to be tortured and die. Even more than this, it would cause His divine nature to be separated from His Father temporarily.
2 Corinthians 5:21 To know no sin is to be free from sin. He says, then, that Christ, while he was entirely exempt from sin, was made sin for us. It is commonly remarked, that sin here denotes an expiatory sacrifice for sin, and in the same way the Latin's term it, piaculum. Paul, too, has in this, and other passages, borrowed this phrase from the Hebrews, among whom (asham) denotes an expiatory sacrifice, as well as an offense or crime.

God uses thick darkness to veil His Glory:
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Deu 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

The cup that Jesus asked to pass was the full force of the wrath of God the Father toward sin. This cup that Jesus was to drink would cause His human nature to be tortured and die. Even more than this, it would cause His divine nature to be separated from His Father temporarily.
2 Corinthians 5:21 To know no sin is to be free from sin. He says, then, that Christ, while he was entirely exempt from sin, was made sin for us. It is commonly remarked, that sin here denotes an expiatory sacrifice for sin, and in the same way the Latin's term it, piaculum. Paul, too, has in this, and other passages, borrowed this phrase from the Hebrews, among whom (asham) denotes an expiatory sacrifice, as well as an offense or crime.

God uses thick darkness to veil His Glory:
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Deu 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Jesus was not made sin for us; he was made a sin offering for us. "A Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Jesus Christ was without spot or blemish when he died. Had he had any sin, his, yours, or mine, he would have been a blemished sacrifice. If blemished, the Father would have rejected the sacrifice of his body and blood. Because the Father did not reject him, he had to be without spot or blemish. It's his shed blood that covers our sin.

His shed blood justifies us, it saves us from the wrath to come and makes atonement for our sins.

1 Peter 1:18-19, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." Neither would be have been redeemed if Jesus died with sin.

[theophile]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

If God was there, Jesus would have been saved. So God clearly wasn't there. God literally forsook Jesus. Left him to suffer and die like Job was left to suffer before Jesus.

So it is God who Jesus is addressing here just as it is God who Job addresses in his story.

The good news for Job is that God shows up. Jesus' words fall only upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

I beg to dis-agree, the Father was there, but withdrawn His protection the moment Jesus drank that cup.
God the Father was present at the cross veiled by the supernatural darkness.

1 Ki 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2 Chr 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you think Jesus was aware that the moment he 'drank that cup' that God would withdraw from him? If so, why the strong words against God? Does he not understand?...

I believe Solomon's cloud of darkness vs. temple language you cite is more a reference to creation than it is to the crucifixion, and that the crucifixion has no place in creation... i.e., Genesis 1 begins with darkness, in which God dwells, and ends in a 'temple' in which God can rest and abide forever. No different than the temple that Solomon was building and describing here. No crucifixion whatsoever being part of the narrative.

That said, I do think we have some common ground, but that pursuing this thread gets us deep into metaphysics and the nature of God. If I convey my view on that front, I think God has two aspects. One -- the most fundamental and eternally abiding -- is spiritual. God as spirit (i.e., the ruach elohim, or the form we see God in at the beginning of Genesis 1) can dwell in darkness. God as such is technically 'present' everywhere, insofar as a spirit can be present, including at the crucifixion. But God as such has no power to save, being spiritual or non-substantial in nature. (I would argue further that God as such isn't even conscious or anything like that, just to be clear on my view. More conscience than consciousness...)

The other aspect is material, which is conditional, in that it requires incarnation or willing subjects 'in the spirit'. It is this material aspect of God that matters here, since only a material God, like Jesus, has the power to save. There is no such incarnation at the crucifixion and Jesus is literally abandoned and left to die. This is not a function of God 'withdrawing' God's spirit, but of those in the crowd keeping God out. Hence again, Jesus' words here fall upon the empty place in the crowd where his deliverer should be standing.

That is his lament. It is directed at God but should cut deep into each of our hearts and minds for being so bereft of the spirit, and allowing such a thing to pass.

The cup that Jesus asked to pass was the full force of the wrath of God the Father toward sin. This cup that Jesus was to drink would cause His human nature to be tortured and die. Even more than this, it would cause His divine nature to be separated from His Father temporarily.
2 Corinthians 5:21 To know no sin is to be free from sin. He says, then, that Christ, while he was entirely exempt from sin, was made sin for us. It is commonly remarked, that sin here denotes an expiatory sacrifice for sin, and in the same way the Latin's term it, piaculum. Paul, too, has in this, and other passages, borrowed this phrase from the Hebrews, among whom (asham) denotes an expiatory sacrifice, as well as an offense or crime.

God uses thick darkness to veil His Glory:
Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
Deu 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Whether God withdraws or is kept out by those in the crowd the result is the same: God isn't there. Jesus is left to suffer and die. His words are directed at God who isn't there.

That said, I do think we can see the crucifixion along the lines that you say. I would describe it more as the uttermost test of our fear of God, that we are genuinely capable of goodness as a species. Of God needing to prove humankind in the face of all our sins, and evil we've brought into the world. Just as Abraham and Job proved this beforehand, albeit in not as extreme ways.

I wouldn't call the cup that Jesus drinks here 'the wrath of God toward sin', but more the testing of our merit before such wrath is unleashed upon us. And for it to be a real test, just as with Job, Jesus (and so God) must be in the dark.

[theophile]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

To build on last post and address the dissonance of Jesus' last words as raised in the OP, the crucifixion can be thought of us a test, just as Job and Abraham were tested. i.e., whether Jesus fears God, or would curse God and turn his back on God once times get tough, and it looks as though God has turned their back on him.

If we apply this to Jesus, we can understand his genuine cries to God and feeling forsaken. It's because he's been forsaken. The test requires this otherwise it would not be a good test. And even though Jesus' words here are harsh, we should note that he does not curse God or turn away from God in what he says.

We see this confirmed and his passing of the test when Jesus at last commends himself to God.

A test narrative framework ties these statements together nicely.