Born Again?

[Zzyzx]

.
Born Again?

Going to church for 1 week or 50 years doesn't make anybody a Christian. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN from above. They may be sincere in thinking they were once Christians, but if they didn't have the born-again experience and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to the degree that they knew it was real, then I don't believe they were ever real Christians.

Is ER speaking for Christians generally, or is this a reflection of the beliefs of some sects or individuals?

In Christianity, born again means rebirth — namely, spiritual birth into the family of God with Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior. This is contrasted with the first birth everyone experiences in the flesh (physical world). In the Bible, Jesus stated that only those who are born-again shall see Heaven - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

The term is frequently used by Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal and some Mainline branches of Protestant Christianity. It is sometimes associated with non-denominational individuals, groups and churches.

Outside of Christianity, the term "born again" is occasionally used to describe beliefs characterised by renewal, resurgence or return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_Christianity

It appears as though only certain sects place great emphasis upon "born again". Does that mean that all others are "not Real Christians"?

They would have never left the faith.

Is it true that once a person is "born again" they "NEVER leave the faith"?

How can anyone be certain that they or someone else is "born again" and will never leave the faith?

I have grave reservations about the legitimacy of so many people around here claiming to be former Christians, for the same reason I mention above.

Can the clear statements by members about being Former Christians be credibly dismissed with "I have greave reservations" by someone who knows nothing about the other person's situation? Or is that a presumptuous platitude?

[myth-one.com]

If the penalty for sinning is eternal torture in hellfire, wouldn't Jesus Christ have to be presently and eternally burning alive in hell since that is the penalty you ascribe for sinners?

Yea or nay?

No.

What is this a trick question?

Not only is it not a trick question, but your answer is wrong! The old and new testaments of the Bible represent wills. Under the Old Testament, the only way to inherit eternal life was to obey the commandments. That is, you must never sin because the wages of sin is death. However, this meant that no man could inherit eternal life because all men sinned.

What if another person could serve the penalty for your sins? For this to happen, that person could not already be under the same judgment. If you are already under a death sentence you cannot substitute your life for a friend who is also on death row. Under that circumstance your life is already forfeited and is no longer yours. You cannot already be guilty of the same crime as the person for whom you are substituting. In addition, you must serve his full sentence. Under the New Testament, Jesus suffered our punishment of death so that we could inherit eternal life. The wages of sin is death, but He never sinned. Therefore, His life could be given for ours.

However, if you believe that non-believers suffer eternally in hellfire you have changed the punishment and created a conflict for yourself! If the punishment for sinning is eternal torture in hellfire, then Jesus did not serve your sentence! To become your Savior, Jesus would be presently burning in hell and would stay there for all eternity if eternal torture in hellfire was the true wages of sin for mankind! Dying on the cross is a walk in the park compared to eternal pain in the fires of hell.

In fact, this false belief that those who do not believe in Jesus will burn alive in hellfire for eternity and never die, trivializes the death of Jesus Christ! In comparison to what many Christian theologians hold in store for one nonbeliever, Jesus' crucifixion on the cross is like a mosquito bite! Being crucified daily for a thousand years would be preferable to burning alive for eternity. These theologians apparently need this false belief to bring people to Jesus through fear.

The true punishment for your sin is the second death, which is eternal. You never live again after suffering the second death. It is the death which is eternal, not the act and torture of dying by fire!

Then from your point of view, should He not go to the lake of fire and cease to exist because you believe that is what happens to sinners?

He died as a human and will never live again as a human. His punishment is everlasting and is exactly equal to the punishment of unsaved sinners. They die a human death and never live again as a human. Actually, since there are physical and spiritual beings, and since non-believers were never born again as a spiritual being, they will never live again period. That is their punishment.

You did not anwser my question from last post:

Do you place a higher value on evil people then evil angels?

The question has no meaning as it had to do with comparing punishments of mankind with that of angels. Evil people who do not accept Jesus as their Savior perish and never live again. That is the end of them. Angels, on the other hand, live forever. There punishment may require an eternity. In fact, Satan (an angel) is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the Bible. Comparing the punishments of man and angels is silly. Man can live to 120 years of age, while angels live forever. A sentence of 120 billion years might be "easy time" for an angel.

[czollers]

Are you serious? You want me to spend my time apologizing to people?

wow. do you hear the utter lack of humility in your voice? the only people jesus ripped into were people teaching religion. why do you figure that is?

Look I serve GOD and the day CHRIST comes to me and says I should apologize to people instead of calling them to repentence in His name I will do just that.

do you think there is another way to lead them to repentance besides screaming "repent!"? that method has not proved effective, why do people continue to insist upon it? my initial response to that question would be that it allows the christian who does it to feel a certain elitist pride in his ability to look down his nose at others. and i don't even need to tell you about the awesome danger of pride.

But untill then GOD'S word in scripture stands and I will do as I am commanded, because I am here to serve the will of GOD in all obediance to my LORD.

Ephesians: 2.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans: 6.14 - For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Colossians: 3.16 - Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
(not hearing a lot of this in your posts)

CHRIST said see that you are not deceived and see that you are not troubled, but no were in all of scripture did CHRIST say to go around apologizing to people for the things He has already warned them about.

A. i never said apologize for jesus, i suggested apologizing for your (our) imperfectness. for christians everywhere who are as sinful as everyone else, yet seem to enjoy propping themselves up as perfect so they can look down their noses at others and feel better, quoting scripture and casting guilt. in the bible i read (granted, it does not contain the apocrypha), god simply does not use guilt to communicate.

i have a feeling that when you stand in judgment, you're going to find yourself repenting for some of what you've said & done "in the name of christ"; that you'll be surprised to find that the compassion of god should have taken more of a front seat than it seems you have given it.

And about defeating the purpose, have you not heard the Kingdom of Heaven is for the sake of the few not the many.

wha...? ok, so you believe that anyone who questions scripture falls into the "many" category? why then should we even bother to evangelize at all? i mean, what good does it do us to go around telling people about the good news if they aren't going to be able to get on the narrow path anyway? yet clearly jesus commands to take his teachings to the ends of the earth.

i think christianity needs to be revamped from time to time. not to change the content of the doctrines, but lets face it, how we communicate has changed in the last 2000 years, and we are on another continent, in another (extremely dissimilar) culture. is it possible the delivery of the message needs to be made in such a way that our listeners can identify with it? it seems to me that was jesus intent in talking in parables. it's why calvin translated the bible, and why he reformed the church when it was becoming something disgusting. even catholic theology is the better for that reformation. i think we are at another such precipice now. time to look anew at how we have communicated the greatest truths on earth and decide if we are really doing them justice. i believe we are not.
(recommended reading: velvet elvis by rob bell)

[drs]

Then from your point of view, should He not go to the lake of fire and cease to exist because you believe that is what happens to sinners?

He died as a human and will never live again as a human. His punishment is everlasting and is exactly equal to the punishment of unsaved sinners. They die a human death and never live again as a human. Actually, since there are physical and spiritual beings, and since non-believers were never born again as a spiritual being, they will never live again period. That is their punishment.

First everyone who has been born on earth except for a few die, that is not their judgement and the punishment that it is spoken off.

Here Elijah went to Heaven without ever dying in the flesh.

Now if flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of heaven, how did Elijah get in?
(BECAUSE HE HAS A SOUL WHICH GOD PUT HIS SPIRIT UPON)

Look at verse 2, 4 and 6 what Elisha says (as your soul lives)



2 Kings 2
Elijah Ascends to Heaven
1 And it came to pass, when the LORD was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the LORD has sent me on to Bethel.�
But Elisha said, “As the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!� So they went down to Bethel.
3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master from over you today?�
And he said, “Yes, I know; keep silent!�
4 Then Elijah said to him, “Elisha, stay here, please, for the LORD has sent me on to Jericho.�
But he said, “As the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!� So they came to Jericho.
5 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho came to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master from over you today?�
So he answered, “Yes, I know; keep silent!�
6 Then Elijah said to him, “Stay here, please, for the LORD has sent me on to the Jordan.�
But he said, “As the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!� So the two of them went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went and stood facing them at a distance, while the two of them stood by the Jordan. 8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?�
Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.�
10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.� 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You did not anwser my question from last post:

Do you place a higher value on evil people then evil angels?
The question has no meaning as it had to do with comparing punishments of mankind with that of angels. Evil people who do not accept Jesus as their Savior perish and never live again. That is the end of them. Angels, on the other hand, live forever. There punishment may require an eternity. In fact, Satan (an angel) is the only being said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the Bible. Comparing the punishments of man and angels is silly. Man can live to 120 years of age, while angels live forever. A sentence of 120 billion years might be "easy time" for an angel

Look you have said that people become like the angels and scripture agrees.

Why do you think the wicked and evil, unbelievers can not become like fallen angels(demons) and do their sentence?

[czollers]

You can't simply demand love. Go try it. Walk up to some one and demand that they love you. Then tell them they must love you more than anyone else. Then tell them if they do not they will lose their life. WARNING: Getting pepper spray in your face hurts!

couldn't agree more here.

Here CHRIST is using the word hate in contrast to show the greater and supreme love you must Have for GOD.

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Scientology uses this same tactic. They try to separate you from people that care about you. That way they can abuse you without anyone getting in the way. For reference look up Scientology and disconnection.

here i disagree with upallnite. the essence of discipleship is giving christ first place. to “hate� one's family and even one's life is rhetorical. it refers to desiring something less than something else. this instruction was especially appropriate in jesus’ day, since a decision for jesus could mean rejection by family and persecution even to the point of death. those who feared family disapproval or persecution would not come to jesus. jesus' call here is to follow him in the way of rejection and suffering for the sake of something that is ultimately immeasurably better. a disciple will be rejected by those in the world who do not honor christ. therefore, a disciple must be ready to face and accept such rejection.

[upallnite]

You can't simply demand love. Go try it. Walk up to some one and demand that they love you. Then tell them they must love you more than anyone else. Then tell them if they do not they will lose their life. WARNING: Getting pepper spray in your face hurts!

couldn't agree more here.

Here CHRIST is using the word hate in contrast to show the greater and supreme love you must Have for GOD.

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Scientology uses this same tactic. They try to separate you from people that care about you. That way they can abuse you without anyone getting in the way. For reference look up Scientology and disconnection.

here i disagree with upallnite. the essence of discipleship is giving christ first place. to “hate� one's family and even one's life is rhetorical. it refers to desiring something less than something else. this instruction was especially appropriate in jesus’ day, since a decision for jesus could mean rejection by family and persecution even to the point of death. those who feared family disapproval or persecution would not come to jesus. jesus' call here is to follow him in the way of rejection and suffering for the sake of something that is ultimately immeasurably better. a disciple will be rejected by those in the world who do not honor christ. therefore, a disciple must be ready to face and accept such rejection.

If your message is "ultimately immeasurably better" there is no need to ask people to hate others. They will recognize what is better and convert. If they did so without hating others they will be a better tool for spreading the message to others.

This is why science slowly wears down religions that oppose it. Science gives us things that people want and it does so without demanding hate of others. People see the benefits of life using what science offers and the hate that the opposing religions offer and make a choice.

This is why some Christians on this forum ask other Christians to lighten up the message. They know hate will not gain any converts. Why did Jesus not notice that hate is not a good method of converting others?

[czollers]

If your message is "ultimately immeasurably better" there is no need to ask people to hate others. They will recognize what is better and convert. If they did so without hating others they will be a better tool for spreading the message to others.

This is why science slowly wears down religions that oppose it. Science gives us things that people want and it does so without demanding hate of others. People see the benefits of life using what science offers and the hate that the opposing religions offer and make a choice.

This is why some Christians on this forum ask other Christians to lighten up the message. They know hate will not gain any converts. Why did Jesus not notice that hate is not a good method of converting others?

holmes, did you read what i wrote? the point is that while the word hate was used, it was a rhetorical figurative usage, not a literal one. christian theology does not teach actual hate in any sense of the word. ya gotta read it with a little depth, bro...

[drs]

Are you serious? You want me to spend my time apologizing to people?

wow. do you hear the utter lack of humility in your voice? the only people jesus ripped into were people teaching religion. why do you figure that is?

Because they were the ones arguing with Him.

Look I serve GOD and the day CHRIST comes to me and says I should apologize to people instead of calling them to repentence in His name I will do just that.

do you think there is another way to lead them to repentance besides screaming "repent!"? that method has not proved effective, why do people continue to insist upon it? my initial response to that question would be that it allows the christian who does it to feel a certain elitist pride in his ability to look down his nose at others. and i don't even need to tell you about the awesome danger of pride.

First, do I think there is another way to lead people to repentence?

In a general statment no, people have to know and understand that they have violated GOD'S laws and continue to live in sin without giving it a second thought.

This world teaches sin and imorality from day 1.

Sexual sin is destroying this world, by the time children grow up, go to public school then high school, by the time they have graguated if they do they have been uterly corrupted in all mannor of worldly views and ways.


Now Lets talk about pride and humility.

I am the first one to admit that I am vile sinner that GOD has granted forgiveness and a new life too, I deserve death and everlasting punishment for all time but by the grace of GOD I have been granted life a place of service before my LORD.


I must have true humility before my LORD day and night and my heart must not be lifted up among my brothers.

But I must serve my LORD and bring forth CHRIST'S word in boldness and stand firm in the truth always.

Now 2000years later more then ever is the time to preach repentence and I am well aware that this offends many and also many say as you have said above that I am looking down my nose at people but that is not the case.



Acts 4

Prayer for Boldness

23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:


‘ Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the LORD and against His Christ.’[c]

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.�
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

But untill then GOD'S word in scripture stands and I will do as I am commanded, because I am here to serve the will of GOD in all obediance to my LORD.

Ephesians: 2.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans: 6.14 - For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Colossians: 3.16 - Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
(not hearing a lot of this in your posts)

I have THE HOLY SPIRIT in me who grants me peace to my mind, who strengthens me from within that I may come out here and speak truth.

Now let me ask you, who realy wants me to be quiet and not preach repentence and do what CHRIST commands?

Satan wants me to be quiet, deny my LORD and not speak the truth as it was meant to be.

CHRIST never told anyone to change the gospel and the way it is to be preached.


Hebrews 13

7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


The word of the LORD endures forever(not forever changing)

1 Peter 1
The Enduring Word

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,[e] 24 because


“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man[f] as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.�[g]

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

CHRIST said see that you are not deceived and see that you are not troubled, but no were in all of scripture did CHRIST say to go around apologizing to people for the things He has already warned them about.

A. i never said apologize for jesus, i suggested apologizing for your (our) imperfectness. for christians everywhere who are as sinful as everyone else, yet seem to enjoy propping themselves up as perfect so they can look down their noses at others and feel better, quoting scripture and casting guilt. in the bible i read (granted, it does not contain the apocrypha), god simply does not use guilt to communicate.

The original King James bible contained it.

Guilt is good to come to repentence, they go together.
Unless some one feels true heart felt guit and sorrow over the way they have lived and the sins they have or are commiting, they will not have a true repentence.

i have a feeling that when you stand in judgment, you're going to find yourself repenting for some of what you've said & done "in the name of christ"; that you'll be surprised to find that the compassion of god should have taken more of a front seat than it seems you have given it.

We can not preach this way, I have heard and so have you.

GOD loves you the way you are, and when this is preached and taught repentence for sin becomes unheard of.

GOD detests sin


Revelation 22


Jesus Testifies to the Churches

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.�[f]
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.�
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!� And let him who hears say, “Come!� And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

And about defeating the purpose, have you not heard the Kingdom of Heaven is for the sake of the few not the many.

wha...? ok, so you believe that anyone who questions scripture falls into the "many" category? why then should we even bother to evangelize at all? i mean, what good does it do us to go around telling people about the good news if they aren't going to be able to get on the narrow path anyway? yet clearly jesus commands to take his teachings to the ends of the earth.

The Kingdom of Heaven is for the sake of the few not the none.

We go to preach to all the earth and GOD will collect all that are His(the few vs the many)

i think christianity needs to be revamped from time to time. not to change the content of the doctrines, but lets face it, how we communicate has changed in the last 2000 years, and we are on another continent, in another (extremely dissimilar) culture. is it possible the delivery of the message needs to be made in such a way that our listeners can identify with it? it seems to me that was jesus intent in talking in parables. it's why calvin translated the bible, and why he reformed the church when it was becoming something disgusting. even catholic theology is the better for that reformation. i think we are at another such precipice now. time to look anew at how we have communicated the greatest truths on earth and decide if we are really doing them justice. i believe we are not.
(recommended reading: velvet elvis by rob bell)[/q

The messege of the gospel is only for those that hear in the way that GOD has said it.


And for the wicked, the evil and unbelievers and those who refuse to repent let them mock and laugh and speak all manor of blaspemeies against the MOST HIGH for the time is at hand and they will recieve their reward.


Revelation 22

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[e] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.�

[myth-one.com]

Look you have said that people become like the angels and scripture agrees.

Why do you think the wicked and evil, unbelievers can not become like fallen angels(demons) and do their sentence?

Because becoming like angels is the REWARD!! Christians receive their reward at the Second Coming:

Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him. (Isaiah 40:10)

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

If non-believers become like the angels they C-A-N-N-O-T serve their sentence as angels are immortal and cannot be killed! Their sentence is death!

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Drs, if you believe that non-believers suffer eternally in hellfire you have changed the punishment of a simple death as defined by God. If the punishment for sinning is eternal torture in hellfire, then for Jesus to become your Savior, Jesus would be presently serving your sentence by burning in hell and would stay there for all eternity. Do you agree or disagree with that, and please explain why or why not.

Thanks.

[cnorman18]

***Moderator Warning Retracted***


See below.

[upallnite]

If your message is "ultimately immeasurably better" there is no need to ask people to hate others. They will recognize what is better and convert. If they did so without hating others they will be a better tool for spreading the message to others.

This is why science slowly wears down religions that oppose it. Science gives us things that people want and it does so without demanding hate of others. People see the benefits of life using what science offers and the hate that the opposing religions offer and make a choice.

This is why some Christians on this forum ask other Christians to lighten up the message. They know hate will not gain any converts. Why did Jesus not notice that hate is not a good method of converting others?

holmes, did you read what i wrote? the point is that while the word hate was used, it was a rhetorical figurative usage, not a literal one. christian theology does not teach actual hate in any sense of the word. ya gotta read it with a little depth, bro...

It has already been presented in this thread that the word used means hate in every other part of the Bible. You are using special pleading that it means something different here.

How do you know it is not literal? Do you have a means of telling when the bible is literal and when it is not?

And because you have now named your self as the person that knows about all Christian theology I will be asking you about the faith of the rest of the Christians here, OK? They did agree to put you in charge, right?