Born Again?

[Zzyzx]

.
Born Again?

Going to church for 1 week or 50 years doesn't make anybody a Christian. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN from above. They may be sincere in thinking they were once Christians, but if they didn't have the born-again experience and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to the degree that they knew it was real, then I don't believe they were ever real Christians.

Is ER speaking for Christians generally, or is this a reflection of the beliefs of some sects or individuals?

In Christianity, born again means rebirth — namely, spiritual birth into the family of God with Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior. This is contrasted with the first birth everyone experiences in the flesh (physical world). In the Bible, Jesus stated that only those who are born-again shall see Heaven - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

The term is frequently used by Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal and some Mainline branches of Protestant Christianity. It is sometimes associated with non-denominational individuals, groups and churches.

Outside of Christianity, the term "born again" is occasionally used to describe beliefs characterised by renewal, resurgence or return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_Christianity

It appears as though only certain sects place great emphasis upon "born again". Does that mean that all others are "not Real Christians"?

They would have never left the faith.

Is it true that once a person is "born again" they "NEVER leave the faith"?

How can anyone be certain that they or someone else is "born again" and will never leave the faith?

I have grave reservations about the legitimacy of so many people around here claiming to be former Christians, for the same reason I mention above.

Can the clear statements by members about being Former Christians be credibly dismissed with "I have greave reservations" by someone who knows nothing about the other person's situation? Or is that a presumptuous platitude?

[drs]

Leaving All to Follow Christ
Mmmm...hate. Here is a thought for you, why would such a powerful being require hate?

You have to understand what CHRIST is saying.

Look at the scripture before it.



37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Luke 14



Here CHRIST is using the word hate in contrast to show the greater and supreme love you must Have for GOD.


25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

[Zzyzx]

.

Here CHRIST is using the word hate in contrast to show the greater and supreme love you must Have for GOD.


25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Yes, that is rather clear -- HATE father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters and life itself -- then you can be a disciple of Christ.

I think I'll pass, thanks just the same.

Others are welcome to do all those weird things in order to be a "disciple", but I am not interested.

[Cathar1950]

Leaving All to Follow Christ
Mmmm...hate. Here is a thought for you, why would such a powerful being require hate?

You have to understand what CHRIST is saying.

Look at the scripture before it.



37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Luke 14



Here CHRIST is using the word hate in contrast to show the greater and supreme love you must Have for GOD.


25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 14:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)
5Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
26"(A)If anyone comes to Me, and does not [a]hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
27"Whoever does not (B)carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 10:37 (New American Standard Bible)
37"(A)He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Mark 8:34 (New American Standard Bible)
34And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and (A)take up his cross and follow Me.
Hector Avalos’ Fighting Words: The Origins of Religious Violence.

The word translated as hate is the Greek word miseo. It means hate everywhere else in the Bible.
You presented us with some apologist’s rationalization.
My personal suspicion is that Jesus was a zealot or Zealous for the Law.
But we have no idea what Jesus said originally or if he even said any of what the gospel writers wrote in the above passages. Carrying your cross is a good hint that it was the invention of the unknown author of Mark or that Mark toned it down because he was trying to distance the Jewish Christians and Jesus from the revolt.

[Flail]

I have always thought that the interpretation saying "He who seeks his life shall lose it" was more in keeping with the philosophy of Jesus elsewhere illustrated in the book....by which I took him to mean that if your motivation in doing what you do is to please some indoctrinated notion of God...if you are motivated by your conduct to be saved and special and blessed...if you seek by your conduct to save your ass as a way to please God....you will lose your life....and that only by doing what is good and right and kind for the very sake of goodness and rightness and kindness...just as Jesus did...will you demonstrate you love for your fellow man...and in those works you will demonstrate your love of God....see Good Samaritan.....

in religion we die...in works we live...and sin is only relevant from what you can learn from it.

[myth-one.com]

Come on now, I have said nothing that is not in GOD'S word.

Your entire theme is eternal torture in the fires of hell as punishment for non-believers. In my opinion, neither you nor anyone else has proven this to be the case. This op is about being "born again." According to the scriptures, Christians will be born again at the Second Coming. No one has yet proven otherwise.
_______________________________________________________________________________

But just for fun, lets "assume" you and others are correct that non-believers will suffer eternal torture in hellfire as a result of their sinning. With that assumption we can move on to the next dilemma which this false assumption creates.

Under this assumption, all mankind would be headed for eternal torture in hellfire because all have sinned. But Jesus lived a sinless life so that He could pay the penalty for mankind's sins. Those who believe in Him are "saved" from the penalty for sinning because they have accepted Jesus as Savior from the consequences of their sins.

But if the penalty for sinning is eternal torture in hellfire, wouldn't Jesus Christ have to be presently and eternally burning alive in hell since that is the penalty you ascribe for sinners?

Yea or nay?

[drs]

Come on now, I have said nothing that is not in GOD'S word.

Your entire theme is eternal torture in the fires of hell as punishment for non-believers. In my opinion, neither you nor anyone else has proven this to be the case. This op is about being "born again." According to the scriptures, Christians will be born again at the Second Coming. No one has yet proven otherwise.
_______________________________________________________________________________

But just for fun, lets "assume" you and others are correct that non-believers will suffer eternal torture in hellfire as a result of their sinning. With that assumption we can move on to the next dilemma which this false assumption creates.

Under this assumption, all mankind would be headed for eternal torture in hellfire because all have sinned. But Jesus lived a sinless life so that He could pay the penalty for mankind's sins. Those who believe in Him are "saved" from the penalty for sinning because they have accepted Jesus as Savior from the consequences of their sins.

But if the penalty for sinning is eternal torture in hellfire, wouldn't Jesus Christ have to be presently and eternally burning alive in hell since that is the penalty you ascribe for sinners?

Yea or nay?

No.

What is this a trick question?

Then from your point of view, should He not go to the lake of fire and cease to exist because you believe that is what happens to sinners?



You did not anwser my question from last post.

Ok, from your meaning here it is not ok for hitler to go to the lake of fire for all time but it is ok for fallen angels(demons) to go to the lake of fire for all time.

Do you place a higher value on evil people then evil angels?

[czollers]

Come on now, I have said nothing that is not in GOD'S word. I think one of the biggest problems is that people who speak and preach GOD'S word have forgotton or don't know who they serve. This watered down people pleasing, freindly to the ear Gospel that is preached these days is a perversion of the truth.

Please come to GOD He will change your life, is what is said.
No mention of repentence or forsaking sin(because we don't want to offend anyone) To even speak about hell or judgment is almost unheard of these days. What did CHRIST say?
[insert scripture here]

wow. ok. drs, i'm not disputing what scripture says. and to a large extent, you and i are in agreement about the meanings of those bits of the bible. but that misses my point entirely. i'm not trying to water it down. i believe the truth is the truth. christian doctrine says we will be held accountable for our actions and i believe it, no question.

but ask yourself if that line of reasoning is wise in this place, with this audience? they are not interested in what christian theology teaches until after they feel convinced that it is worth listening to. yet you offer them nothing they are interested in. while you have a head full of valid information, IMO, you're spewing it mindlessly. it's sound doctrine, but craptacular evangelism.

think of all the awful things done in the name of christ. or the betrayals perpetrated by christian leaders. the jerry fallwells, jimmy swaggerts, & ted haggartys of the world have lent great credit to the notion that christians are loudmouth hypocrites with no shred of honor in them. one cannot blame them.
(recommended reading: unchristian by kinnaman & lyons) we have a serious image problem, and it is our own doing.

want a tip on how to approach people: try humility and apologies for two thousand of years of lying, opression, racism, hate mongering, power struggles, and bigotry. there is a famous christian who when he was in college got together with the other guys in his small frat- the only christian frat on campus- and decided during a campus wide rally to set up confessional booths. except that when people gingerly came in out of sheer curiosity, the christian frat brothers did the confessing. they confessed honestly and apologized for years of treating people poorly and elitism and lying. they apologized for marginilizing gays and women who chose abortion, and for making them feel like they were somehow not loved. (recommended reading: blue like jazz by don miller)

in short, i suggest you spend some time praying about this. consider the value of grace. it was given to you. of all the people i know, i need grace most. i am the last stooge to throw stones. moreover, it defeats your purpose. the fire & brimstone movement died out for a reason.

[drs]

Come on now, I have said nothing that is not in GOD'S word. I think one of the biggest problems is that people who speak and preach GOD'S word have forgotton or don't know who they serve. This watered down people pleasing, freindly to the ear Gospel that is preached these days is a perversion of the truth.

Please come to GOD He will change your life, is what is said.
No mention of repentence or forsaking sin(because we don't want to offend anyone) To even speak about hell or judgment is almost unheard of these days. What did CHRIST say?
[insert scripture here]

wow. ok. drs, i'm not disputing what scripture says. and to a large extent, you and i are in agreement about the meanings of those bits of the bible. but that misses my point entirely. i'm not trying to water it down. i believe the truth is the truth. christian doctrine says we will be held accountable for our actions and i believe it, no question.

but ask yourself if that line of reasoning is wise in this place, with this audience? they are not interested in what christian theology teaches until after they feel convinced that it is worth listening to. yet you offer them nothing they are interested in. while you have a head full of valid information, IMO, you're spewing it mindlessly. it's sound doctrine, but craptacular evangelism.

think of all the awful things done in the name of christ. or the betrayals perpetrated by christian leaders. the jerry fallwells, jimmy swaggerts, & ted haggartys of the world have lent great credit to the notion that christians are loudmouth hypocrites with no shred of honor in them. one cannot blame them.
(recommended reading: unchristian by kinnaman & lyons) we have a serious image problem, and it is our own doing.

want a tip on how to approach people: try humility and apologies for two thousand of years of lying, opression, racism, hate mongering, power struggles, and bigotry. there is a famous christian who when he was in college got together with the other guys in his small frat- the only christian frat on campus- and decided during a campus wide rally to set up confessional booths. except that when people gingerly came in out of sheer curiosity, the christian frat brothers did the confessing. they confessed honestly and apologized for years of treating people poorly and elitism and lying. they apologized for marginilizing gays and women who chose abortion, and for making them feel like they were somehow not loved. (recommended reading: blue like jazz by don miller)

in short, i suggest you spend some time praying about this. consider the value of grace. it was given to you. of all the people i know, i need grace most. i am the last stooge to throw stones. moreover, it defeats your purpose. the fire & brimstone movement died out for a reason.

Are you serious? You want me to spend my time apologizing to people?

Look I serve GOD and the day CHRIST comes to me and says I should apologize to people instead of calling them to repentence in His name I will do just that.

But untill then GOD'S word in scripture stands and I will do as I am commanded, because I am here to serve the will of GOD in all obediance to my LORD.


Also 2000 years ago CHRIST warned everyone that false prophets would arise in His name and decieve many, so the world was told before hand this would happen.

Why would I apologize for something that CHRIST clearly stated in scripture, also the disciples clearly gave many warnings in scripture.


Lets see what CHRIST had to say,


Matthew 24

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?�
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.



CHRIST said see that you are not deceived and see that you are not troubled, but no were in all of scripture did CHRIST say to go around apologizing to people for the things He has already warned them about.


And about defeating the purpose, have you not heard the Kingdom of Heaven is for the sake of the few not the many.


Matthew 7

The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


2 Esdras, Chapter 7
2 Esdras 7:1 And when I had made an end of speaking these words, there was sent unto me the angel which had been sent unto me the nights afore:
2 Esdras 7:2 And he said unto me, Up, Esdras, and hear the words that I am come to tell thee.
2 Esdras 7:3 And I said, Speak on, my God. Then said he unto me, The sea is set in a wide place, that it might be deep and great.
2 Esdras 7:4 But put the case the entrance were narrow, and like a river;
2 Esdras 7:5 Who then could go into the sea to look upon it, and to rule it? if he went not through the narrow, how could he come into the broad?
2 Esdras 7:6 There is also another thing; A city is builded, and set upon a broad field, and is full of all good things:
2 Esdras 7:7 The entrance thereof is narrow, and is set in a dangerous place to fall, like as if there were a fire on the right hand, and on the left a deep water:
2 Esdras 7:8 And one only path between them both, even between the fire and the water, so small that there could but one man go there at once. 2 Esdras 7:9 If this city now were given unto a man for an inheritance, if he never shall pass the danger set before it, how shall he receive this inheritance?
2 Esdras 7:10 And I said, It is so, Lord. Then said he unto me, Even so also is Israel's portion.
2 Esdras 7:11 Because for their sakes I made the world: and when Adam transgressed my statutes, then was decreed that now is done.
2 Esdras 7:12 Then were the entrances of this world made narrow, full of sorrow and travail: they are but few and evil, full of perils,: and very painful.
2 Esdras 7:13 For the entrances of the elder world were wide and sure, and brought immortal fruit.
2 Esdras 7:14 If then they that live labour not to enter these strait and vain things, they can never receive those that are laid up for them. 2 Esdras 7:15 Now therefore why disquietest thou thyself, seeing thou art but a corruptible man? and why art thou moved, whereas thou art but mortal?
2 Esdras 7:16 Why hast thou not considered in thy mind this thing that is to come, rather than that which is present? 2 Esdras 7:17 Then answered I and said, O Lord that bearest rule, thou hast ordained in thy law, that the righteous should inherit these things, but that the ungodly should perish.
2 Esdras 7:18 Nevertheless the righteous shall suffer strait things, and hope for wide: for they that have done wickedly have suffered the strait things, and yet shall not see the wide.
2 Esdras 7:19 And he said unto me. There is no judge above God, and none that hath understanding above the Highest.
2 Esdras 7:20 For there be many that perish in this life, because they despise the law of God that is set before them. 2 Esdras 7:21 For God hath given strait commandment to such as came, what they should do to live, even as they came, and what they should observe to avoid punishment.
2 Esdras 7:22 Nevertheless they were not obedient unto him; but spake against him, and imagined vain things;
2 Esdras 7:23 And deceived themselves by their wicked deeds; and said of the most High, that he is not; and knew not his ways:
2 Esdras 7:24 But his law have they despised, and denied his covenants; in his statutes have they not been faithful, and have not performed his works.
2 Esdras 7:25 And therefore, Esdras, for the empty are empty things, and for the full are the full things.





2 Esdras, Chapter 8
2 Esdras 8:1 And he answered me, saying, The most High hath made this world for many, but the world to come for few.

[upallnite]

Leaving All to Follow Christ
Mmmm...hate. Here is a thought for you, why would such a powerful being require hate?

You have to understand what CHRIST is saying.

Look at the scripture before it.



37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Luke 14

You can't simply demand love. Go try it. Walk up to some one and demand that they love you. Then tell them they must love you more than anyone else. Then tell them if they do not they will lose their life. WARNING: Getting pepper spray in your face hurts!

Here CHRIST is using the word hate in contrast to show the greater and supreme love you must Have for GOD.


25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Scientology uses this same tactic. They try to separate you from people that care about you. That way they can abuse you without anyone getting in the way. For reference look up Scientology and disconnection.

I like to think the faith I once followed is better than Scientology. But when I read things like this I don't think it is.

[drs]

Leaving All to Follow Christ
Mmmm...hate. Here is a thought for you, why would such a powerful being require hate?

You have to understand what CHRIST is saying.

Look at the scripture before it.



37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Luke 14

You can't simply demand love. Go try it. Walk up to some one and demand that they love you. Then tell them they must love you more than anyone else. Then tell them if they do not they will lose their life. WARNING: Getting pepper spray in your face hurts!

Do you not think it is right to love your GOD and Creator above all people and things?

Those who love GOD, it is because GOD first loved them and no one comes to CHRIST unless they are drawn to Him by GOD Himself and likewise no one Knows the FATHER unless CHRIST reveals Him to them

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.


John 6:44 (New King James Version)
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Matthew 11:27 (New King James Version)
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.


And finally Love = obediance to GOD



Deuteronomy 30:16 (New King James Version)
16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.


Indwelling of the Father and the Son

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.�
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?�
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.