Born Again?

[Zzyzx]

.
Born Again?

Going to church for 1 week or 50 years doesn't make anybody a Christian. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN from above. They may be sincere in thinking they were once Christians, but if they didn't have the born-again experience and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to the degree that they knew it was real, then I don't believe they were ever real Christians.

Is ER speaking for Christians generally, or is this a reflection of the beliefs of some sects or individuals?

In Christianity, born again means rebirth — namely, spiritual birth into the family of God with Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior. This is contrasted with the first birth everyone experiences in the flesh (physical world). In the Bible, Jesus stated that only those who are born-again shall see Heaven - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

The term is frequently used by Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal and some Mainline branches of Protestant Christianity. It is sometimes associated with non-denominational individuals, groups and churches.

Outside of Christianity, the term "born again" is occasionally used to describe beliefs characterised by renewal, resurgence or return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_Christianity

It appears as though only certain sects place great emphasis upon "born again". Does that mean that all others are "not Real Christians"?

They would have never left the faith.

Is it true that once a person is "born again" they "NEVER leave the faith"?

How can anyone be certain that they or someone else is "born again" and will never leave the faith?

I have grave reservations about the legitimacy of so many people around here claiming to be former Christians, for the same reason I mention above.

Can the clear statements by members about being Former Christians be credibly dismissed with "I have greave reservations" by someone who knows nothing about the other person's situation? Or is that a presumptuous platitude?

[bernee51]

Question: If God allows even one non-believer to spend eternity in hellfire, how can God also be love? Please do not repeat the answer, "All I can say is that is the way GOD designed it." If God designed it that way, then "God is Love" is a lie!

First it is a grave mistake to impose your limited understanding of love on to the Creater of the universe.

Second, this is were so many people have lost their way and understanding because they have decided in their own minds what is love and what GOD can and can not do.?

All this, of course, implies that YOU do not have a limited understanding of love as you claim to KNOW god's understanding of love.

If so can I ask - is god's love unconditional?

Third, Who do you think you are to decide what is just and right for GOD to do with His universe or to speak against the way GOD has ordained things?

As god has not deigned to show his face I must presume he (if he existed) has little interest in 'his universe' - accordingly he has not 'ordained' anything.

I challenge your god here and now to put up or shut up.


...

...

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waiting, waiting waiting....

[JoeyKnothead]

Question: If God allows even one non-believer to spend eternity in hellfire, how can God also be love? Please do not repeat the answer, "All I can say is that is the way GOD designed it." If God designed it that way, then "God is Love" is a lie!

First it is a grave mistake to impose your limited understanding of love on to the Creater of the universe.

Second, this is were so many people have lost their way and understanding because they have decided in their own minds what is love and what GOD can and can not do.?

All this, of course, implies that YOU do not have a limited understanding of love as you claim to KNOW god's understanding of love.

If so can I ask - is god's love unconditional?

Third, Who do you think you are to decide what is just and right for GOD to do with His universe or to speak against the way GOD has ordained things?

As god has not deigned to show his face I must presume he (if he existed) has little interest in 'his universe' - accordingly he has not 'ordained' anything.

I challenge your god here and now to put up or shut up.


...

...

...


waiting, waiting waiting....

Don't hold your breath.

[myth-one.com]

Question: If God allows even one non-believer to spend eternity in hellfire, how can God also be love? Please do not repeat the answer, "All I can say is that is the way GOD designed it." If God designed it that way, then "God is Love" is a lie!

First it is a grave mistake to impose your limited understanding of love on to the Creater of the universe.

Second, this is were so many people have lost their way and understanding because they have decided in their own minds what is love and what GOD can and can not do.

Third, Who do you think you are to decide what is just and right for GOD to do with His universe or to speak against the way GOD has ordained things?

Your answer is that mankind cannot understand "love" in God's terms? So although we are created "in the image of God," we are just a little too dumb to decide how burning someone alive eternally is love, buy it must be because God "designed it that way."
___________________________________________________________________________________

Just for clarification: Although you cannot explain why, you still claim both of the following statements to be true:

1) God's punishment for mankinds sins is eternal torture in hell.

--- and ---
2) God is love.

[drs]

Question: If God allows even one non-believer to spend eternity in hellfire, how can God also be love? Please do not repeat the answer, "All I can say is that is the way GOD designed it." If God designed it that way, then "God is Love" is a lie!

First it is a grave mistake to impose your limited understanding of love on to the Creater of the universe.

Second, this is were so many people have lost their way and understanding because they have decided in their own minds what is love and what GOD can and can not do.

Third, Who do you think you are to decide what is just and right for GOD to do with His universe or to speak against the way GOD has ordained things?

Your answer is that mankind cannot understand "love" in God's terms? So although we are created "in the image of God," we are just a little too dumb to decide how burning someone alive eternally is love, buy it must be because God "designed it that way."

Did you not read the scripture? GOD says you can not understand His ways or judgments.

So what are you saying, you know better then GOD?

___________________________________________________________________________________

Just for clarification: Although you cannot explain why, you still claim both of the following statements to be true:

1) God's punishment for mankinds sins is eternal torture in hell.

--- and ---
2) God is love.

Remember we are talking about the wicked and evil and those who hate GOD, they will spend eternity in Hell.




4 The LORD is in His holy temple,
The LORD’s throne is in heaven;
His eyes behold,
His eyelids test the sons of men.
5 The LORD tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. 6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
Shall be the portion of their cup.

7 For the LORD is righteous

He loves righteousness;
His countenance beholds the upright.[a]




Proverbs 8
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.�





Leviticus 20:23 (New King James Version)
23 And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them.




And here is who will be loved by GOD.

John 14

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.�

[czollers]

Question: If God allows even one non-believer to spend eternity in hellfire, how can God also be love? Please do not repeat the answer, "All I can say is that is the way GOD designed it." If God designed it that way, then "God is Love" is a lie!

First it is a grave mistake to impose your limited understanding of love on to the Creater of the universe.

Second, this is were so many people have lost their way and understanding because they have decided in their own minds what is love and what GOD can and can not do.

Third, Who do you think you are to decide what is just and right for GOD to do with His universe or to speak against the way GOD has ordained things?

Romans 9
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.�[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.�[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?� 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?� 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

2 Esdras 5:31 Now when I had spoken these words, the angel that came to me the night afore was sent unto me,
2 Esdras 5:32 And said unto me, Hear me, and I will instruct thee; hearken to the thing that I say, and I shall tell thee more.
2 Esdras 5:33 And I said, Speak on, my Lord. Then said he unto me, Thou art sore troubled in mind for Israel's sake: lovest thou that people better than he that made them? 2 Esdras 5:34 And I said, No, Lord: but of very grief have I spoken: for my reins pain me every hour, while I labour to comprehend the way of the most High, and to seek out part of his judgment.
2 Esdras 5:35 And he said unto me, Thou canst not[/u]. And I said, Wherefore, Lord? whereunto was I born then? or why was not my mother's womb then my grave, that I might not have seen the travail of Jacob, and the wearisome toil of the stock of Israel?
2 Esdras 5:36 And he said unto me, Number me the things that are not yet come, gather me together the dross that are scattered abroad, make me the flowers green again that are withered,
2 Esdras 5:37 Open me the places that are closed, and bring me forth the winds that in them are shut up, shew me the image of a voice: and then I will declare to thee the thing that thou labourest to know.
2 Esdras 5:38 And I said, O Lord that bearest rule, who may know these things, but he that hath not his dwelling with men?
2 Esdras 5:39 As for me, I am unwise: how may I then speak of these things whereof thou askest me?
2 Esdras 5:40 Then said he unto me, Like as thou canst do none of these things that I have spoken of, even so canst thou not find out my judgment, or in the end the love that I have promised unto my people.


Isaiah 55:9 (New King James Version)

8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,� says the LORD.
9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts

drs, while i appreciate your fervof for god and the depth to which you have obviously gone to understand his heart, this post was foolish, arrogant, and worst of all accomplishes precisely the opposite of what you would like it to.

IMO, the problem with christians is that they're all amateurs. (ok, i ripped that off, but i cant remember from whom, so i'm claiming it, dangit...) we get a smidgen of understanding about the greatness of god and it [rightfully] so excites us that we can't keep our amateur, inexperienced, wisdom lacking mouths shut. next thing you know, we're all making what should be a beautiful and remarkable thing into something annoying and disgraceful. i grant you that your understanding of scriptures is solid. however, apparently your understanding of people, or relationships, or evangelism, for that matter, is not. so just stowe it until you can figure that out.

All this, of course, implies that YOU do not have a limited understanding of love as you claim to KNOW god's understanding of love. If so can I ask - is god's love unconditional?

Third, Who do you think you are to decide what is just and right for GOD to do with His universe or to speak against the way GOD has ordained things?

As god has not deigned to show his face I must presume he (if he existed) has little interest in 'his universe' - accordingly he has not 'ordained' anything. I challenge your god here and now to put up or shut up.
...
...
...
waiting, waiting waiting....

if it is not ok for someone else to speak with authority on who god is, is alright for you to make demands of god to act in accordance with what seems best to you. i submit that if there is any god at all (and as you know by now, i am not in doubt), his intelligence and wisdom are beyond anything we can conceive. think about your size in the incredible unfathomable vastness of the milkyway galaxy- one of billions of galaxies, and have some humility.




[/quote]

[JoeyKnothead]

For the observer's information:

Guidelines of the C&A subforum

4. Unsupported Bible quotations are to be considered as no more authoritative than unsupported quotations from any other book.

5. Please avoid "preaching" and using the forum as simply a way to blast people with the gospel message. This is a debating forum, not a convenient place to overtly proselytize.

7. For debates purely on theology with the assumption that the Bible is an authoritative source, please consider posting in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma subforum.

I specifically point to number 7 here, where we see this debate has devolved into a "Bible says this, Bible says that" form of theological debate with little extra-biblical evidence that any of this occurs/exists or is even the actual intent or opinion of the proposed god.

[myth-one.com]

Did you not read the scripture? GOD says you can not understand His ways or judgments.

I've read the scriptures many times and I believe what they state. They state that the wages of sin is death. You on the otherhand, believe the wages of sin is eternal torture in hellfire. Given those two options:

1) The wages of sin is a quick and eternal death.

-- and --

2) The wages of sin is eternal torture in the fires of hell.

Which punishment is more akin to "God is Love?"

So what are you saying, you know better then GOD?

No, but I believe and accept what He inspired to be written in the scriptures as the truth.

Remember we are talking about the wicked and evil and those who hate GOD, they will spend eternity in Hell.

We are talking about non-believers:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Included are many, many, wonderful loving people. Perhaps Gandhi is a good example. Anyway, you're saying it's good if say Hitler burns alive for all eternity? That's mighty "Christian" of you.

[drs]

Question: If God allows even one non-believer to spend eternity in hellfire, how can God also be love? Please do not repeat the answer, "All I can say is that is the way GOD designed it." If God designed it that way, then "God is Love" is a lie!

First it is a grave mistake to impose your limited understanding of love on to the Creater of the universe.

Second, this is were so many people have lost their way and understanding because they have decided in their own minds what is love and what GOD can and can not do.

Third, Who do you think you are to decide what is just and right for GOD to do with His universe or to speak against the way GOD has ordained things?

Romans 9
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.�[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.�[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?� 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?� 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

2 Esdras 5:31 Now when I had spoken these words, the angel that came to me the night afore was sent unto me,
2 Esdras 5:32 And said unto me, Hear me, and I will instruct thee; hearken to the thing that I say, and I shall tell thee more.
2 Esdras 5:33 And I said, Speak on, my Lord. Then said he unto me, Thou art sore troubled in mind for Israel's sake: lovest thou that people better than he that made them? 2 Esdras 5:34 And I said, No, Lord: but of very grief have I spoken: for my reins pain me every hour, while I labour to comprehend the way of the most High, and to seek out part of his judgment.
2 Esdras 5:35 And he said unto me, Thou canst not[/u]. And I said, Wherefore, Lord? whereunto was I born then? or why was not my mother's womb then my grave, that I might not have seen the travail of Jacob, and the wearisome toil of the stock of Israel?
2 Esdras 5:36 And he said unto me, Number me the things that are not yet come, gather me together the dross that are scattered abroad, make me the flowers green again that are withered,
2 Esdras 5:37 Open me the places that are closed, and bring me forth the winds that in them are shut up, shew me the image of a voice: and then I will declare to thee the thing that thou labourest to know.
2 Esdras 5:38 And I said, O Lord that bearest rule, who may know these things, but he that hath not his dwelling with men?
2 Esdras 5:39 As for me, I am unwise: how may I then speak of these things whereof thou askest me?
2 Esdras 5:40 Then said he unto me, Like as thou canst do none of these things that I have spoken of, even so canst thou not find out my judgment, or in the end the love that I have promised unto my people.


Isaiah 55:9 (New King James Version)

8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,� says the LORD.
9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts

drs, while i appreciate your fervof for god and the depth to which you have obviously gone to understand his heart, this post was foolish, arrogant, and worst of all accomplishes precisely the opposite of what you would like it to.

IMO, the problem with christians is that they're all amateurs. (ok, i ripped that off, but i cant remember from whom, so i'm claiming it, dangit...) we get a smidgen of understanding about the greatness of god and it [rightfully] so excites us that we can't keep our amateur, inexperienced, wisdom lacking mouths shut. next thing you know, we're all making what should be a beautiful and remarkable thing into something annoying and disgraceful. i grant you that your understanding of scriptures is solid. however, apparently your understanding of people, or relationships, or evangelism, for that matter, is not. so just stowe it until you can figure that out.

Come on now, I have said nothing that is not in GOD'S word.

I think one of the biggest problems is that people who speak and preach GOD'S word have forgotton or don't know who they serve.

This watered down people pleasing, freindly to the ear Gospel that is preached these days is a perversion of the truth.

Please come to GOD He will change your life, is what is said.
No mention of repentence or forsaking sin(because we don't want to offend anyone)

To even speak about hell or judgment is almost unheard of these days.



What did CHRIST say?



Luke 13

Repent or Perish
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish


Luke 24

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise[h] from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48



Matthew 10
14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!


Those who speak GOD'S words have to understand we are not to bring people to the LORD under false pretenses.

You can not get extra people saved by not giving them the whole truth, you can only make false converts.

I hear preachers say, we want to get them in the church.

To get people in the church does not get people into Heaven, just packing pews does not cut it.


And yes many will be offended and hate you when you speak the truth as you are commanded by CHRIST to do

The World’s Hatred

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’[c]



But we our out here preaching for those who will not be offended at the truth, for those who will repent and come to CHRIST under His terms.

Matthew 11:6 (New King James Version)
6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.�


Then Finally for those who will repent and believe they must be taught that to truly come to CHRIST is a all or nothing deal.

This is the next thing the churches do not want to preach, to become a disciple of CHRIST will cost you everything, you must be willing to forsake all and put GOD above all people and all things now and forever.



Mark 8


Take Up the Cross and Follow Him

34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.�


Christ Brings Division

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Luke 14

Leaving All to Follow Christ

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

[drs]

Did you not read the scripture? GOD says you can not understand His ways or judgments.

I've read the scriptures many times and I believe what they state. They state that the wages of sin is death. You on the otherhand, believe the wages of sin is eternal torture in hellfire. Given those two options:

1) The wages of sin is a quick and eternal death.

-- and --

2) The wages of sin is eternal torture in the fires of hell.

Which punishment is more akin to "God is Love?"

So what are you saying, you know better then GOD?

No, but I believe and accept what He inspired to be written in the scriptures as the truth.

Remember we are talking about the wicked and evil and those who hate GOD, they will spend eternity in Hell.

We are talking about non-believers:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Included are many, many, wonderful loving people. Perhaps Gandhi is a good example. Anyway, you're saying it's good if say Hitler burns alive for all eternity? That's mighty "Christian" of you.

Ok, from your meaning here it is not ok for hitler to go to the lake of fire for all time but it is ok for fallen angels(demons) to go to the lake of fire for all time.

Do you place a higher value on evil people then evil angels?

[upallnite]

Luke 13
Those people died at the hands of another human. Are you saying if I do not repent you or some other human will kill me? Do you have the balls to try?

Luke 24
What does that have to do with hell or being born again? All it is is a command to tell people to repent.

Matthew 10
What does this have to do with hell? What does this have to do with being born again?

Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
You make this statement on a computer. I sure hope you don't own that computer.

Christ Brings Division
Ah, now that is the OT kind of demand for worship I like to see. I have no problem losing my life in opposition to a dictator. I was not raised to be a coward.

Leaving All to Follow Christ
Mmmm...hate. Here is a thought for you, why would such a powerful being require hate?

Forsake all
Again, that isn't your computer, right?