Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Base12
Apprentice
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2025 10:35 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #1

Post by Base12 »

Those who interpret Genesis 2:17 generally fall into three basic categories:
  1. The word 'day' is not literal (e.g. a day with the Lord is a thousand years, etc.).
  2. The phrase 'surely die' is not literal (e.g. you will 'begin to die/age', 'spiritually die', 'be separated from God', etc.).
  3. 'Day' and 'surely die' are literal, so God either lied or changed his mind.
Here is the verse...

Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."


There is another option, however. It is the one I believe:
  • Both 'day' and 'surely die' are literal, however God *did not* lie or change his mind.
As far as I know, I am the only person to ever exist who believes the verse as is, without changing it, as well as God telling the Truth.

Does anyone else interpret Genesis 2:17 this way? Why or why not?
Last edited by Base12 on Sat Mar 08, 2025 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22890
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 900 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Base12 wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 7:13 am The Sun, Moon and Stars can be interpreted as both literally and figuratively, depending on the context.
What do you mean both literally and figuratively? Do you mean that in certain context the word is literal and non-literal at the same time or did you mean to say ..."The Sun, Moon and Stars can be interpreted literally OR figuratively, depending on the context"?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Capbook
Guru
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat May 04, 2024 7:12 am
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #22

Post by Capbook »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 7:10 pm
Base12 wrote: Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:07 pm
Base12 wrote: Sat Mar 08, 2025 10:25 pm An incredible clue as to what is about to be taught is the word 'generations'. This is a word used to describe Genetics. Why would the Heavens and Earth have Genetics? This is something that folks should really study because it is a major Key to deciphering the entire Bible.
  • Greater Light = Father Archetype
  • Lesser Light = Mother Archetype
  • Stars = Child Archetype
See...

Genesis 37:9
"And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."


And...

Revelation 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"


The Heavens declare...

Psalms 19:5
"Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race."


Bodies Celestial. The Groom 'runs the race' to consummate the marriage and plant the Star Seed in the Tabernacle.

Jerusalem Above/Mother of us all.

Put it all together. O:)
After all is said and done, a "day" in the account is an undetermined amount of time. Otherwise the first chapter of Genesis and Genesis 2:4 contradict each other and it doesn't make any sense. Gen. chapter 1 says God made the earth and everything on it in "6 days." Gen. 2:4 says it was "a day." A "day" has to be, logically, an undisclosed period of time, undoubtedly thousands of years in length.
As I've pointed out to you before, a "day" in the creation week is 24 hour day evening and morning. If you interpret it as thousand of years, you'll have the problem of what the fowls' food would be for many thousand years, which was created in the fifth day, while God informed them what their food was in the sixth day. If you reasoned that fowls have instinct to know what their food of the many thousand years interpretation, that would make your god not all-knowing.

I believe Gen 2:17 is talking about spiritual death. Before they sinned Adam and Eve were pure and unspoiled. I believe the Spirit of God was within them.

Gen 6:3
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
KJV

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 12751
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 447 times
Been thanked: 468 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #23

Post by 1213 »

Base12 wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 7:27 am ...
Before the partaking of the Forbidden Zygote, the couple were not ashamed, meaning they had no reproductive organs. ....
They were naked because they were not clothed with skin and flesh yet...
....
The point of the two trees were to choose which Parents they would like to be born from. The fruit and leaves of each tree are also symbolic of covering (i.e., DNA/Genetics).

What folks seem to miss is how drastic their physiology changed after partaking. Basically, their DNA was altered to say the least.

Look at the Serpent. God changed Serpent form one form to another. This is a complete alteration of physiology. It is a recreation/reincarnation.

If we really wish to get technical here, God transformed Satan into sperm ...
Sorry, I don't think any of that can be supported with the Bible.
My new book can be read freely from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view

Old version can be read from here:
http://web.archive.org/web/202212010403 ... x_eng.html

User avatar
Base12
Apprentice
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2025 10:35 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #24

Post by Base12 »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 9:44 am Can you make Dan's case for the paronomastic infinitive? Otherwise it seems like simply an appeal to a single authority for Gen 2:17 being literal, and that isn't a good reason to believe something.
If I was an expert in Hebrew and a certified Scholar, I could make a good case. As for me having a reason to believe, all I ever needed was to not take away and add to the verses. The story lines up perfectly after that. Moreover, it reveals a much richer history when unpacked.

For those that are interested in another opinion, there is a very good article found here...

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archiv ... -shall-die

Here are a few quotes:
If Genesis 2:17 is not announcing a punishment for violating a command, it implies that God does not actually threaten punishment and hold people accountable to His commandments. This, in turn, calls into question the meaning of the judgment depictions in Daniel and Revelation, as well as the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and other New Testament authors.
Finally, to interpret Genesis 2:17 as announcing natural consequences instead of a juridical penalty ignores the overwhelming biblical evidence of how authors used the phrase in question throughout the Old Testament. As such, the natural consequences interpretation seems to establish human arbiters as higher authorities than the text to determine its truthfulness and relevance. Scripture no longer interprets Scripture.
The author is left scratching his head as to why the story does not make sense in his head but is smart enough to simply let the verse stand as-is until he can fully understand it one day. Most end up tweaking the words to fit their theology. That is bad exegesis.
The Tanager wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 9:44 am As to your question, I think the tree of life is symbolic of a relationship of trust with God while the second tree is symbolic of humans trying to work it out and decide for themselves what is good for them.
Thanks. That is a reasonable answer. It makes me think of a parent saying, "We can do this the easy way or the hard way, your choice".

I will create a new thread that goes deeper into what the two trees are so that folks can see what I believe.

User avatar
Base12
Apprentice
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2025 10:35 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #25

Post by Base12 »

1213 wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 1:24 am Sorry, I don't think any of that can be supported with the Bible.
  • His Seed = Sperm
  • Her Seed = Ovum
Look at what 'Her Seed' is...

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/revelation/12-17.htm

Image

Does that word bother people? It is basic human physiology and biology that is being described. God created a brand-new thing called 'Conception'. It did not exist before the Fall. How could it? That would mean that there was death in the Garden of Eden which would contradict this verse...

Romans 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"


The couple were immortal, like the Angels, and did not need to reproduce by normal procreation. They were to help God create life the same way he did, from the Dust of the Ground and Ribs. In other words, via Genetic Engineering.

Do you really believe that God told Adam and Eve to have sex and eat from the Tree of Life and make babies? Is that how Heaven works?

Are the Sons of God in New Jerusalem having sex with each other and eating the Tree of Life? That is insane. Yet, that is basically what Christians teach without even realizing it because they never double check their logic.

User avatar
The Tanager
Savant
Posts: 5755
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 218 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #26

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to Base12 in post #24]

But aren't you saying that McClellan is the Hebrew scholar and that you think he makes a good case? Or are you just saying you like the conclusion McClellan offers and since he's a scholar, you will use him as support, but you don't actually understand why he thinks that?

The second option is clearly fallacious reasoning, so I hope it's the first. If it is the first, then that would mean you were able to understand the logic of the case and felt it sound, so you should be able to lay it out for us to analyze its soundness.

From everything else I'm looking at, scholars say the paronomastic infinitive is used to emphasize a concept, not denote literal meanings. So, in Gen 2:17, whatever death means, the author is focusing our attention on that. And, contextually, the rest of the Bible does seem to talk about a death that isn't a physical death (such as in Deut 30:19), as well as spending eternity with God so both of those options (spiritual death and becoming mortal) are still on the table.

Then as the narrative unfolds we don't have any direct mention of a second adam or second woman, but continuity between the same individual eating the fruit, not physically dying but having a broken relationship with God, and living for many days after that, but eventually dying.

You say you aren't adding anything to the text and just taking it for what is says, but the text doesn't directly claim a second adam or a second wife, among other things you've claimed. So, this "not adding to" or "not taking away" must be more than just a literal reading of the words; you think the context (including clues within other verses) lead us to yours being the better take. And all interpretations do this; texts must be interpreted. And all interpretations would logically result in counter interpretations tweaking something in the text here or there (although not necessarily just to fit some pre-conceived theology). Thus, we need to analyze the actual reasons one should come to the conclusion we are offering as the best interpretation.

User avatar
Base12
Apprentice
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2025 10:35 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #27

Post by Base12 »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:55 am [Replying to Base12 in post #24]
But aren't you saying that McClellan is the Hebrew scholar and that you think he makes a good case? Or are you just saying you like the conclusion McClellan offers and since he's a scholar, you will use him as support, but you don't actually understand why he thinks that?
Both options would be accurate.

Dan uses more than one piece of evidence to support his claim. Just because I do not understand one piece of evidence, does not mean I do not understand the others.
The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:55 am The second option is clearly fallacious reasoning...
I disagree.
The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:55 am Then as the narrative unfolds we don't have any direct mention of a second adam or second woman...
That is an incorrect statement.

Who did God create from the rib?
The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:55 am ...but continuity between the same individual eating the fruit, not physically dying but having a broken relationship with God, and living for many days after that, but eventually dying.
Nope. You have yet to prove what you claim is true.
The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:55 am Thus, we need to analyze the actual reasons one should come to the conclusion we are offering as the best interpretation.
Great, let us do just that. I invite you to my other thread...

viewtopic.php?p=1167232

I go verse by verse with commentary. You can post yours and we can compare notes. O:)

User avatar
Base12
Apprentice
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2025 10:35 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #28

Post by Base12 »

Just an FYI...

There are plenty of folks out there that see a First Adam created on the Third Day. If someone is not aware of this, it just means they have not done their research.

Here is just one example of many...


User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 12751
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 447 times
Been thanked: 468 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #29

Post by 1213 »

Base12 wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:32 am ...God created a brand-new thing called 'Conception'. It did not exist before the Fall. How could it? That would mean that there was death in the Garden of Eden
Sorry, there is no Biblical reason to think so.
My new book can be read freely from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view

Old version can be read from here:
http://web.archive.org/web/202212010403 ... x_eng.html

User avatar
The Tanager
Savant
Posts: 5755
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 218 times

Re: Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

Post #30

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to Base12 in post #27]
Base12 wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:26 pmBoth options would be accurate.

Dan uses more than one piece of evidence to support his claim. Just because I do not understand one piece of evidence, does not mean I do not understand the others.
Okay, so to make sure I’m tracking with you, the reasons you shared for the death in Gen 2:17 to be physical death were: (1) basic translation rules like the paronomastic infinitive, (2) it breaks all other uses in the Bible, (3) alternatives are wishful thinking, and (4) to remain consistent with other theological beliefs.

You said you’ll start other threads on (4). You say you don’t understand (1) enough to explain it. Could you then provide support for (2) or (3). I’m sorry if I’ve missed any other reasons, explanations offered of (2) and (3), or misunderstand you in any way.
Base12 wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:26 pm
The second option is clearly fallacious reasoning…
I disagree.
Let’s make sure we are understanding each other here. I am saying that a conclusion isn’t sound simply because one academically trained scholar agrees with it. Are you saying that is a good reason to believe something?
Base12 wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:26 pmWho did God create from the rib?
Notice that I said “direct mention”, meaning that the text doesn’t directly say God created a second man and a second woman.

Are you saying that God created the first wife in Gen 1, then a second wife in Gen 2 from Adam’s rib, and then the first wife ate the fruit and died, while the second wife had Cain, Abel, and Seth? If so, is there direct mention of that or do you have to piece the clues together?
Base12 wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:26 pmGreat, let us do just that. I invite you to my other thread...

viewtopic.php?p=1167232

I go verse by verse with commentary. You can post yours and we can compare notes.
I will take a look, although I may not get to it until the weekend.

Post Reply