Genesis 2:17 - Both 'Day' and 'Surely Die' are Literal. God Did Not Lie.

[Base12]

Those who interpret Genesis 2:17 generally fall into three basic categories:

1. The word 'day' is not literal (e.g. a day with the Lord is a thousand years, etc.).
2. The phrase 'surely die' is not literal (e.g. you will 'begin to die/age', 'spiritually die', 'be separated from God', etc.).
3. 'Day' and 'surely die' are literal, so God either lied or changed his mind.

Here is the verse...

Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

There is another option, however. It is the one I believe:

• Both 'day' and 'surely die' are literal, however God *did not* lie or change his mind.

As far as I know, I am the only person to ever exist who believes the verse as is, without changing it, as well as God telling the Truth.

Does anyone else interpret Genesis 2:17 this way? Why or why not?

[Base12]

If one wishes to get technical about the proper translation and interpretation of Genesis 2:17, they will find that indeed, both 'day' and 'surely die' are literal.

This is according to the basic rules of Hebrew translation as well as exegesis.

Dan McClellan goes over some of this in several videos. Here is one...



Unfortunately, Dan comes to the false conclusion that God either lied or changed his mind.

I also disagree with Dan that the First Adam was not immortal. I believe he was.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Base12 in post #2]

I don't usually watch posted videos, so I was wondering if you could summarize the reasons that 'day' and 'die' are indeed literal?

[Base12]

[Replying to Base12 in post #2]

I don't usually watch posted videos, so I was wondering if you could summarize the reasons that 'day' and 'die' are indeed literal?

Hi The Tanager. Here are some of the reasons cited in the video:

• Using basic translation rules (e.g. paronomastic infinitive, other occurrences in the Bible, etc.), the words 'day' and 'surely die' can only be literal.
• By altering the verses, it breaks all of the other uses in the Bible.
• The mainstream interpretations are nothing more than wishful thinking to hide false theology.

I will add my own. By not interpreting Genesis 2:17 literally, we end up with a very long list of problems it causes.

Here are just a few...

• The Creation Account becomes contradictory and illogical.
• The message of Salvation is lost.
• Important information in the Creation Account is lost.
• Concepts regarding Hell and the Resurrection of Damnation are lost.
• The meaning of the Forbidden Fruit is lost.
• The meaning of the Tree of Life is lost.
• The creation of Ishshah becomes conflated with the creation of Eve.
• The word 'day' in Genesis 2:4 must be changed to 'six days'.
• What the Serpent was, and was recreated as, is lost.

The list goes on and on.

[Base12]

...By altering the verses, it breaks all of the other uses in the Bible...

Here are some examples, using 'begin the aging process and eventually die' in place of 'surely die':

Genesis 20:7
"Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die [begin the aging process and eventually die], thou, and all that are thine."

See how ridiculous that sounds? Clearly the verse is broken.

Another:

1 Samuel 22:16
"And the king said, Thou shalt surely die [begin the aging process and eventually die], Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father’s house."

Nope, that does not work either.

One more:

Ezekiel 33:8
"When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die [begin the aging process and eventually die]; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

We can do this over and over again. The false dogma simply does not work.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Base12 in post #1]

There is nothing awkward or wrong about the idea that a "day" is NOT 24 hours in length. A "day" can be any undisclosed period of time, sometimes thousands of years. To see that a "day" is not literal one only has to look at Genesis 2:4 where, if we were to look at it the way you do, God created the earth in 24 hours. "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that God made earth and heaven." Was it created in 24 hours? The "days" of creation in chapter 1 weren't either.

God didn't lie. He was just inspiring the author of Genesis to write in a certain way, and many people don't understand it. The "morning" is the beginning of something. The "evening" is the end of something. It's just poetic license. A "day" isn't a literal 24 hours. It is an undisclosed period of time.

[Base12]

Hi onewithhim. Thanks for visiting and commenting.

I would like to address this...

To see that a "day" is not literal one only has to look at Genesis 2:4 where, if we were to look at it the way you do, God created the earth in 24 hours. "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that God made earth and heaven." Was it created in 24 hours? The "days" of creation in chapter 1 weren't either.

Firstly, I have no problem believing God is powerful enough to create the worlds in literal days. After all, it is all just software programming. It is not much different than a game developer using an engine to create a world by dragging and dropping objects into a plane or just using A.I. to automatically generate a landscape.

Secondly, if we do not interpret the word 'day' in Genesis 2:4 as literal, it causes all kinds of huge problems. This is why the Bible critics are quick to point out that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are contradictory. They are making the same rookie mistakes as the Christians.

Let us review...

Genesis 2:4
"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"

An incredible clue as to what is about to be taught is the word 'generations'. This is a word used to describe Genetics. Why would the Heavens and Earth have Genetics? This is something that folks should really study because it is a major Key to deciphering the entire Bible.

We will skip that for now and look at what day this is. Note that the verse does not say 'in the day that the LORD God made earth, the heavens, the plants, the animals, the greater light, the lesser light, the stars, fish, birds, etc. etc.' It is only referring to what was created on one particular day. That day is the Third Day...

Genesis 1:9-13
"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day."

As we can see, Earth was not created until the Third Day. The Three Heavens were also completed. That puts the timeline of Genesis 2:4 on the Third Day *before* any form of life has been created yet. This is the part that most gloss over. You glossed over it yourself. Genesis 2 is adding the missing details that Genesis 1 did not mention.

Pay attention this time when reading the next verse...

Genesis 2:5 (New Living Translation)
Neither wild plants nor grains were growing on the earth. For the LORD God had not yet sent rain to water the earth, and there were no people to cultivate the soil.

The verse clearly states that we are at the moment in time *before* any form of life had been created yet. No plant, animals, people, etc. exist at this point.

How can anyone claim that this is referring to the Sixth Day when it is extremely obvious that it is not? This is gross negligence.

Again, we are on the Third Day. So, what was the first form of life created on the Third Day? See for yourself...

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Whoops! Looks like the so called 'scholars' have all lied to us. There was a First Adam created on the Third Day. And guess what happened to him? He literally died on the literal day he partook of the Forbidden Fruit just like God said he would. Case closed.

[The Tanager]

Hi The Tanager. Here are some of the reasons cited in the video:

Hi Base12! Thanks for summarizing the video and adding your own reasons.

Using basic translation rules (e.g. paronomastic infinitive, other occurrences in the Bible, etc.), the words 'day' and 'surely die' can only be literal.

From what I can quickly gather, the paronomastic infinitive is about intensifying or emphasizing a statement, so why does that denote only literal meanings? For instance, must Lamentations 3:52 mean that people literally hunted Jeremiah like they would hunt a bird? Most scholars seem to take that verse as metaphorical, so I’d be surprised that they’d agree that paronomastic infinitives can only be literal.

By altering the verses, it breaks all of the other uses in the Bible.

So, in Gen 25:32, Esau was about to literally die of starvation? In Gen 30:1, Rachel would literally have died if she didn’t have a child? In Deut 30:19, Moses is saying he has set literal life and death before the Israelites and he wants them to choose to go on physically living instead of choosing physical death?

The Creation Account becomes contradictory and illogical.
The message of Salvation is lost.
Important information in the Creation Account is lost.
Concepts regarding Hell and the Resurrection of Damnation are lost.
The meaning of the Forbidden Fruit is lost.
The meaning of the Tree of Life is lost.
The creation of Ishshah becomes conflated with the creation of Eve.
The word 'day' in Genesis 2:4 must be changed to 'six days'.
What the Serpent was, and was recreated as, is lost.
The list goes on and on.

Could you explain what you mean by these statements and the chain of reasoning that gets you there? Maybe do one at a time?

Here are some examples, using 'begin the aging process and eventually die' in place of 'surely die':

Genesis 20:7
"Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die [begin the aging process and eventually die], thou, and all that are thine."

See how ridiculous that sounds? Clearly the verse is broken.

…

Those who interpret Gen 2:17 as speaking of losing immortality would not interpret those other verses as the same because they are taking context into account when interpreting a passage, not because they think the term always means the same thing. Terms in the Bible often have a wide range of uses or meanings.

Do you think terms can only have one meaning throughout the entire Bible? If so, why? If not, then it comes down to context. In context, interpreting ‘die’ in Gen 2:17 as “become immortal” doesn’t sound ridiculous. Personally, I think it speaks of a spiritual death in the same way Deut 30:19 speaks of spiritual life and death.

We will skip that for now and look at what day this is. Note that the verse does not say 'in the day that the LORD God made earth, the heavens, the plants, the animals, the greater light, the lesser light, the stars, fish, birds, etc. etc.' It is only referring to what was created on one particular day. That day is the Third Day

…

As we can see, Earth was not created until the Third Day. The Three Heavens were also completed.

From which verse(s) are you getting that the three heavens are completed on the third day?

How can anyone claim that this is referring to the Sixth Day when it is extremely obvious that it is not? This is gross negligence.

I don’t think anyone here was saying Gen 2:4 is speaking of the sixth day. I think the point was that verse 4 is saying God created everything (the heavens and the earth is believed by many to be an idiom that covers everything) in a day. Since the author puts this together with the previous six-day creation format, this is one piece of evidence that the author didn’t use ‘day’ literally as they would obviously be contradicting themself.

Now, your theory focusing on the third day of creation would meet that challenge of supposed contradiction as well, at least only looking at that detail of it, so that doesn’t alone decide in favor of either option, so we’d have to look at the wider cases (as you then begin to do).

Whoops! Looks like the so called 'scholars' have all lied to us. There was a First Adam created on the Third Day. And guess what happened to him? He literally died on the literal day he partook of the Forbidden Fruit just like God said he would. Case closed.

But Adam continues to live beyond that day. God says that he will eat of the cursed ground all of his days (3:17), not just the rest of this one day of your life. Adam still had the chance to eat of the tree of life and live forever (3:22). Adam impregnates Eve and she gives birth to multiple children (4:1-2) and then another (4:25).

Also, what do you make of the seventh day of creation (Gen 2:2) not having evening and morning? If taken literally, wouldn’t that mean that day never ended?

[Base12]

Hi Base12! Thanks for summarizing the video and adding your own reasons.

You are welcome.

From what I can quickly gather, the paronomastic infinitive is about intensifying or emphasizing a statement, so why does that denote only literal meanings?

I would have to defer that question to Dan since that topic is not my forte. However, there are things that I know that I will not reveal just yet until I can gain a better understanding for the rules of this forum. There are certain topics that I would love to discuss and points that I would love to make if they are allowed. They would go a long way to answer your questions.

For instance, must Lamentations 3:52 mean that people literally hunted Jeremiah like they would hunt a bird? Most scholars seem to take that verse as metaphorical, so I’d be surprised that they’d agree that paronomastic infinitives can only be literal.

It is funny that you brought up that particular verse. Did you happen to notice the next one?

Lamentations 3:53
"They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me."

Strong's 6789: tsamath
Definition: To cut off, destroy, annihilate

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6789.htm

What if I told you that I believe it was literal? Would it make sense to you? The KJV has it correct.

I will give you a hint. There is a major theme of the Second Death in those verses. There is a similar theme in Jonah and of course with Adam and Eve, which is what I am trying to show the folks here. 'Dying ye shall die' means 'dying the first death, you will die the Second Death'. The concept of Hell and the Lake of Fire was there all along.

If you knew what a 'Pit' was and what a 'Stone' was, you would never look at the Bible the same way ever again.

So, in Gen 25:32, Esau was about to literally die of starvation? In Gen 30:1, Rachel would literally have died if she didn’t have a child? In Deut 30:19, Moses is saying he has set literal life and death before the Israelites and he wants them to choose to go on physically living instead of choosing physical death?

See my post #5. I am referring to verses with the specific phrase 'surely die'. The verses do not work with the other interpretations like 'begin to die'.

Could you explain what you mean by these statements and the chain of reasoning that gets you there? Maybe do one at a time?

I could and I have done it many times before on other forums and in videos I have made. I think the rules prohibit me from linking any of it.

I will post them over time here on this forum if I am not banned for doing something stupid which I am famous for... lol.

I will make a new thread on the first one on the list (The Creation Account becomes contradictory and illogical.) later today.

Those who interpret Gen 2:17 as speaking of losing immortality would not interpret those other verses as the same because they are taking context into account when interpreting a passage, not because they think the term always means the same thing. Terms in the Bible often have a wide range of uses or meanings.

Agreed, however the context *does* require physical death in order to maintain congruency, univocality, etc. I will prove this as time goes on. Hopefully in that new thread I just mentioned.

Do you think terms can only have one meaning throughout the entire Bible? If so, why?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the verse. I interpret things on a case-by-case basis.

If not, then it comes down to context. In context, interpreting ‘die’ in Gen 2:17 as “become immortal” doesn’t sound ridiculous. Personally, I think it speaks of a spiritual death in the same way Deut 30:19 speaks of spiritual life and death.

I am surprised you did not reference these verses...

Ephesians 2:1-2
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Folks think I am insane for believing the verses literally.

Dead means dead. Times past means a very long time ago.

Did you know that only something that is physically dead can be quickened?

1 Corinthians 15:36
"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die"

How were you quickened if you did not physically die in times past?

Look...

Psalms 71:20
"Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth."

Quicken again? You mean this happened before? From the depths of the Earth?

Do you see the pattern? Do you understand where we came from?

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

Put it together The Tanager.

From which verse(s) are you getting that the three heavens are completed on the third day?

See post #7.

But Adam continues to live beyond that day.

Does he really? Or does he die like God said and was resurrected on the Sixth Day with a new, mortal body? Have you ever considered that possibility? I believe we are looking at Bible Typology and foreshadowing of the Lake of Fire. They 'passed through the fire' of the Flaming Swords. Fallen from Heaven to Earth. Ethereal to physical. Big changes happening.

The dead are said to be sleeping. 'Opening of the eyes' can mean one who has been brought back to life...

2 Kings 4:35
"Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes."

Note that God created a being called Ishshah, *not Eve* from the rib. Did you notice that? Have you ever questioned why there is another woman that is named Eve much later in the narrative?

Do you really believe that Adam gave the same Woman two different names? See how silly that is? That is a problem that you need to resolve because otherwise, you are teaching that God lied here...

Genesis 2:19
"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

The rule is established. Whatever Adam 'called' a newly formed creature, that was its name. How can Adam obey God's command by naming the same person twice in a row? He cannot, therefore Eve was a newly formed creature *after* the Fall. Thus, according to the rule set by God, she must be named...

Genesis 3:20
"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."

Now the verses all make sense. Eve was given reproductive organs. Ishshah did not have any. These are two very different Women with two very different physiologies and DNA. Note that people in the Bible are often named by the method or circumstances by which they were brought forth into the world. Ishshah was created via a Rib. Eve was created via the Forbidden Zygote. Two methods, two people, two names. You want context, there you go. Most ignore the context.

God says that he will eat of the cursed ground all of his days (3:17), not just the rest of this one day of your life.

That is referring to the Second Adam created on the Sixth Day, not the First Adam created on the Third Day. Remember, Jesus is the *last* Adam who rose on the Third Day. Get it? There is a series of Adams.

Adam still had the chance to eat of the tree of life and live forever (3:22).

And how does that work? What exactly does the Tree of Life do? What was its purpose?

Also, what do you make of the seventh day of creation (Gen 2:2) not having evening and morning? If taken literally, wouldn’t that mean that day never ended?

What Science calls the Big Bang is what happened when the First Adam and the Woman partook of the Forbidden Zygote.

Participatory Anthropic Principle. Eyes were opened. Wave functions collapsed. Birth of a physical universe. Who knows how much time passed after that.

If folks wish to throw millions of years of Evolution in there, go for it. See if I care.

The death of the First Adam, Ishshah and the Serpent is so much more profound than most can handle.

See Cosmic Egg.

I will leave it there for now.

[Base12]

An incredible clue as to what is about to be taught is the word 'generations'. This is a word used to describe Genetics. Why would the Heavens and Earth have Genetics? This is something that folks should really study because it is a major Key to deciphering the entire Bible.

• Greater Light = Father Archetype
• Lesser Light = Mother Archetype
• Stars = Child Archetype

See...

Genesis 37:9
"And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

And...

Revelation 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"

The Heavens declare...

Psalms 19:5
"Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race."

Bodies Celestial. The Groom 'runs the race' to consummate the marriage and plant the Star Seed in the Tabernacle.

Jerusalem Above/Mother of us all.

Put it all together.