Born Again?

[Zzyzx]

.
Born Again?

Going to church for 1 week or 50 years doesn't make anybody a Christian. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN from above. They may be sincere in thinking they were once Christians, but if they didn't have the born-again experience and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to the degree that they knew it was real, then I don't believe they were ever real Christians.

Is ER speaking for Christians generally, or is this a reflection of the beliefs of some sects or individuals?

In Christianity, born again means rebirth — namely, spiritual birth into the family of God with Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior. This is contrasted with the first birth everyone experiences in the flesh (physical world). In the Bible, Jesus stated that only those who are born-again shall see Heaven - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

The term is frequently used by Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal and some Mainline branches of Protestant Christianity. It is sometimes associated with non-denominational individuals, groups and churches.

Outside of Christianity, the term "born again" is occasionally used to describe beliefs characterised by renewal, resurgence or return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_Christianity

It appears as though only certain sects place great emphasis upon "born again". Does that mean that all others are "not Real Christians"?

They would have never left the faith.

Is it true that once a person is "born again" they "NEVER leave the faith"?

How can anyone be certain that they or someone else is "born again" and will never leave the faith?

I have grave reservations about the legitimacy of so many people around here claiming to be former Christians, for the same reason I mention above.

Can the clear statements by members about being Former Christians be credibly dismissed with "I have greave reservations" by someone who knows nothing about the other person's situation? Or is that a presumptuous platitude?

[Munchskreem]

myth,

In context of the conversation,
I was saying that sex is not a sin
between a husband and a wife.
But this does not mean
the child is born innocent.

Can you give any evidence that a child is not born innocent?

Jumping in here, just to clarify, ARE you an adherent to the idea of "Original Sin"?

[InTheFlesh]

myth,

In context of the conversation,
I was saying that sex is not a sin
between a husband and a wife.
But this does not mean
the child is born innocent.

Can you give any evidence that a child is not born innocent?

Pss.51
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[OnceConvinced]

That seems to be talking about the mother as being sinful, not the child itself.

[myth-one.com]

Jumping in here, just to clarify, ARE you an adherent to the idea of "Original Sin"?

"Original Sin" meaning what? The original sin of mankind was Adam & Eve eating from the tree of knowledge. It was the first time any human had ever sinned, thus it was the original sin. So the entire human raced had sinned (both of them). Sin and the wages of sin was "passed" to all of humanity:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

How was this accomplished? Heredity and DNA. I believe it's a result of being physical and the resultant physical wants, needs, and desires. If someone is starving, they probably will steal food. If any human (other than Jesus) lives long enough, they will knowingly commit sin.
____________________________________________________________________________________

"Original sin" meaning that every human baby is born having sinned is hogwash! Jesus Christ was born as a human. If He was born guilty of some "original sin," He could not have sacrificed His life to pay the wages for our sinning. The entire Christian system then falls to pieces.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Pss.51
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That seems to be talking about the mother as being sinful, not the child itself.

I agree. The following verse is also refering to the parents sinning:

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

One or both parents lust after each other, they conceive and bring forth an innocent human child who will also eventually sin, resulting in their ultimate death. The wages of sin is the second death.

[InTheFlesh]

You are steering off point
about whether the baby is born innocent.
I was saying that no one dies innocent.
So to get back on point,
no one ever died innocent.
So the "innocent baby" theory
is not supported by scripture.

[InTheFlesh]

Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This includes those not so "innocent babies" as well.

[myth-one.com]

Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This includes those not so "innocent babies" as well.

Here's how that works (Second or third attempt):

Sin is the transgression of God's laws, or commandments:

For sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

However, to commit a sin, one must first recognize that the act is a sin:

To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

If an infant dies before ever knowingly committing a sin, he or she dies innocent. It is meaningless if an infant commits an act which adults recognize as a sin! Suppose a 6-month old somehow murders his parents. A 6-month old does not know about murder or recognize that killing his parents is a sin. So it is not imputed or counted against him as a sin! That is what the scriptures state. There are babies which die as innocents!

The verse you quoted simply states that all have sinned.

Do you now see that one can commit a "sinful act" while remaining innocent?
If not, why do you not understand that now?

[InTheFlesh]

It's not a misunderstanding on my part
it's a private interpretation on your part.

NO ONE died innocent.
Which part of that do you not understand?

Can you provide any scripture
to support your claim
that some died innocent?

[micatala]

It's not a misunderstanding on my part
it's a private interpretation on your part.

Why would myth-one's interpretation be "private" and InTheFlesh's not?

NO ONE died innocent.
Which part of that do you not understand?

A baby is born. One minute later it dies without having committed sin. Did this infant not die innocent? If not, why not?

Can you provide any scripture
to support your claim
that some died innocent?

The scripture already provided by myth-one together with the explicit example I provided would seem to support the claim quite nicely.

Quote:
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

One or both parents lust after each other, they conceive and bring forth an innocent human child who will also eventually sin, resulting in their ultimate death. The wages of sin is the second death.

These and the other discussion on this point square with the whole rationale for the virgin birth. Standard Christian theology holds that Jesus was born sinless because his mother conceived without "knowing man" and thus, without lust of the flesh being involved.


I think part of the problem with this discussion is fuzziness in the notion of sin, especially sinful acts versus the notion of original sin. Does original sin apply to each person at birth, or is it a general condition of humanity but one that individual's only acquire when they commit their first sin?

Also, note that a given action may be sinful when engaged in by one person but not for another. See Romans 14, for example, where Paul discusses how eating meat might be sinful for a person who cannot do it in faith and in good conscience while Paul himself holds that no food is "unclean" in itself.

[InTheFlesh]

It's not a misunderstanding on my part
it's a private interpretation on your part.

Why would myth-one's interpretation be "private" and InTheFlesh's not?

Because I have provided scripture
that no one died innocent (barring Jesus of course)
but he can't provide scripture
that anyone died innocent.

NO ONE died innocent.
Which part of that do you not understand?

A baby is born. One minute later it dies without having committed sin. Did this infant not die innocent? If not, why not?

First of all,
you are creating a scenario
which has never happened.
But no, it did not.
Because the baby was conceived in sin remember?
Therefore the baby inherited death by association.
Every baby born is born to die.
Therefore the baby is guilty of death from the start.

Can you provide any scripture
to support your claim
that some died innocent?

The scripture already provided by myth-one together with the explicit example I provided would seem to support the claim quite nicely.

I must have missed that scripture,
can you please repost it?

Quote:
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

This points out that death comes from sin
so babies die because of sin.

One or both parents lust after each other, they conceive and bring forth an innocent human child who will also eventually sin, resulting in their ultimate death. The wages of sin is the second death.

If it's an act of sin
why do you say the baby is born innocent?

These and the other discussion on this point square with the whole rationale for the virgin birth. Standard Christian theology holds that Jesus was born sinless because his mother conceived without "knowing man" and thus, without lust of the flesh being involved.

I think part of the problem with this discussion is fuzziness in the notion of sin, especially sinful acts versus the notion of original sin. Does original sin apply to each person at birth, or is it a general condition of humanity but one that individual's only acquire when they commit their first sin?

At birth!

Also, note that a given action may be sinful when engaged in by one person but not for another. See Romans 14, for example, where Paul discusses how eating meat might be sinful for a person who cannot do it in faith and in good conscience while Paul himself holds that no food is "unclean" in itself.