Born Again?

[Zzyzx]

.
Born Again?

Going to church for 1 week or 50 years doesn't make anybody a Christian. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN from above. They may be sincere in thinking they were once Christians, but if they didn't have the born-again experience and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to the degree that they knew it was real, then I don't believe they were ever real Christians.

Is ER speaking for Christians generally, or is this a reflection of the beliefs of some sects or individuals?

In Christianity, born again means rebirth — namely, spiritual birth into the family of God with Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior. This is contrasted with the first birth everyone experiences in the flesh (physical world). In the Bible, Jesus stated that only those who are born-again shall see Heaven - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

The term is frequently used by Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal and some Mainline branches of Protestant Christianity. It is sometimes associated with non-denominational individuals, groups and churches.

Outside of Christianity, the term "born again" is occasionally used to describe beliefs characterised by renewal, resurgence or return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_Christianity

It appears as though only certain sects place great emphasis upon "born again". Does that mean that all others are "not Real Christians"?

They would have never left the faith.

Is it true that once a person is "born again" they "NEVER leave the faith"?

How can anyone be certain that they or someone else is "born again" and will never leave the faith?

I have grave reservations about the legitimacy of so many people around here claiming to be former Christians, for the same reason I mention above.

Can the clear statements by members about being Former Christians be credibly dismissed with "I have greave reservations" by someone who knows nothing about the other person's situation? Or is that a presumptuous platitude?

[TheMessage]

OK, you have found a role model (Jesus) upon which to base the way you lead your life from now on. That's cool. I'm guessing but I would think that this boils down to being 'a good person' (whatever that might be) roughly in the way that Jesus seems to have been 'a good person'.

Well, I don't have a role model like you but I would be interested to know what you perceive are the qualities of Jesus that you admire so much so that I can compare them to the moral qualities that I try to live up to. In what way do you think they might be different, given that you are a believer and I am an atheist? Or maybe they are very similar - in which case why do you follow a religion and I follow none?

if you're really interested to know, you'd need to read the new testament. the qualities and teachings i admire are too rich & numerous to realistically portray in a single conversation. but a few important ones are humility- that is, putting myself second; grace- forgiving others even when i don't feel like they deserve it, because i know there have been times i have been in shoes similar to theirs; gratitude- if god did create the world then everything in it & about it is his, and i owe him a debt of gratitude for the gift of it... theres so much more.

i have atheist friends who live out morals that in the end look similar on the outside. it's the emotions and relationships behind the morals that matter. wanting to have laws against child abuse isn't all that morally impressive if you want them because it's a smarter way to run a healthy society. we respect those laws because we love our kids, or at least can relate to people who love their kids. the reason behind is everything...

Have you ever sold your clothes to buy weapons? Would you say that shunning the poor for a minor personal luxury is good (Not very humble in the way Jesus said it, either)? How about stealing, is that good? Maybe destroying a fig tree because it's out of season is the epitome of goodness?

Jesus is not a great moral teacher. In fact, if Jesus even was a real person he was utterly insane. These are the actions and teachings of megalomaniac who will tell you to 'love thy brother' one moment then to 'bring war' the very next.

You don't share the values of Jesus, at least I hope you don't. Rather, you share some of them... the ones that are common to just about every other religion or moral philosophy.

[Goat]

No, Paul was hardly a Jew. He might have claimed he was 'to a jew, he was a jew', but his theology was hardly Jewish.

well, certainly by today's jewish standards, you're right. and maybe even according to some of the jewish political/religious leaders of his day, there may have been disagreement. but paul definitely thought of himself as a jew. he simple believed that jesus was the messiah they had been waiting for, despite the fact that he wasn't the kind of messiah they were waiting for. when paul taught, he believed he was teaching the law in its fulfilled state. perhaps he was a radical, or a new-wave jew. but he definitely thought of himself as a jew, and of "the way" (the earliest name for the teachings of jesus) as a more complete version of his jewish culture.

He mascaraed as a Jew, but , at least one point he claimed to be the same tribe as
Herod, who was a convert. His theology was at extreme odds with any of the Jewish sects.

Cnormon wrote a nice long post about how Paul was not Jewish. I will repeat that post.

The LXX, or Septuagint, was not highly regarded by the Jews of Jesus's day. Many, if not most, rabbis and sages of that time and later regarded it as an abomination. The only proper language for reading and studying Torah was, and is today, thought to be the Hebrew in which it was originally written. The only Jews who ever used it extensively were the Jews of the Greek Diaspora whose culture produced it.
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One of the points which makes Paul's purported Jewishness suspect, is, as it happens, the fact that all of his quotations from the OT come from the LXX and not from the Hebrew Bible. It is hard not to conclude that Paul was unable to read Hebrew. This in itself does not indicate that Paul could not have been Jewish, but it is a problem if one wishes to show that Paul's Judaism was typical or normative of the Jews of his day.

A far greater problem is Paul's general attitude toward the Law; he clearly regards it as a burden and a trial, whereas the attitude of Jews throughout the ages has been to see it as a delight, a lamp to one's feet, sweet as honey, and so on. Pick a Psalm. Paul's attitude is nothing if not atypical.

It's clear that Paul was much more a product of the overwhelmingly Greek-dominated culture of Tarsus, a backwater of the Jewish world that was much more oriented toward Athens than toward Jerusalem, than of the Jewish culture he claims. It is even suspect that Paul claims to know he is of the tribe of Benjamin; even in Jesus's day, few Jews other than Levites still knew their tribal affiliation, though there were (and still are) exceptions. This would be particularly unlikely in Tarsus, which, as noted, was far from being a center of Jewish culture.

Paul claims to have been a student of the great rabbi Gamaliel, but his writings and thought show no evidence of this influence whatever.

As for the virgin birth; if this was such an important and central doctrine of Christianity, it seems odd that Paul was apparently unaware of it, or alternatively, did not regard it as worth talking about. He mentions it nowhere.



(2) Paul of Tarsus clearly knew relatively little about Jewish teachings. He may not even have been Jewish.

Paul apparently could not read Hebrew. All his OT translations are from the LXX (the Septuagint, a Greek translation). This would be extremely unusual for a supposedly learned Jew of the time; the LXX was considered suspect by Hebrew-speaking Jews, and many rabbis of the time considered it an abomination..

Paul claims to know that he is of the tribe of Benjamin; while that is possible, it is very unlikely indeed. Even by the time of Jesus, most Jews had long since lost or forgotten their tribal affiliations. Then and now--though there are exceptions--virtually the only Jews who know from what tribe they are descended are Levites, or of the subgroup of Levi called the Cohens, the priestly tribe descended from Aaron, Moses's older brother (both Moses and Aaron were Levites).

Knowing one's tribal affiliation would be even more peculiar for a Jew from Tarsus, because that was not a Jewish city nor a center of Jewish culture; it was emphatically Greek. Finding a Jew in that backwater of the Jewish world who knew his tribe would be like finding a hillbilly in the Ozarks who could trace his ancestry back to 12th-century England.

Most importantly of all, Paul's attitude toward the Law--that it is a burden and a torment--was and is practically unheard of among Jews. Pick a Psalm: the Law is invariably regarded as a a joy, a light, a precious gift, the greatest of all God's blessings. It is difficult to express how peculiar Paul's attitude here is. It's analogous to a Christian regarding the Gospel as the "Bad News."

However great a figure Paul may be among Christians, he was no authority on Judaism.

[myth-one.com]

Born Again?

Here is what the Bible states regarding being "Born Again":

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

There are two body types, physical and spiritual and they are different; each requiring a different birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must be born again as a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the spiritual Kingdom of God! The natural or physical body comes first, and the spiritual body comes at the second coming of Jesus:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life... (Daniel 12:2)

Being "born again" is an actual event and happening, not simply some emotion or feeling. No matter how many millions of Christians claim to be "born again," the scriptures tell us there are exactly zero! Christians are presently "heirs" to everlasting life. They will be born again as spiritual beings into the Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. Only at that moment can they truly profess to being "born again."

[drs]

Being "born again" is an actual event and happening, not simply some emotion or feeling. No matter how many millions of Christians claim to be "born again," the scriptures tell us there are exactly zero! Christians are presently "heirs" to everlasting life. They will be born again as spiritual beings into the Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. Only at that moment can they truly profess to being "born again."

1 Peter 1

The Enduring Word

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,[e] 24 because


“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man[f] as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.�[g]
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.



verse 23, having been born again takes place now when GOD'S SPIRIT comes and dwells in you.



John 14
Indwelling of the Father and the Son

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.�
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?�
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.




Acts 5
32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.�

1 Corinthians 6:19 (New King James Version)
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own


Ephesians 1


13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritace to eternal life.



2 Corinthians 5:17 (New King James Version)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

New creation = born again




Galatians 3

Sons and Heirs

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Flail]

I find it interesting that Christians claim their faith comes with a warranty....as if they have a contractual relationship with the creator of the universe.....but contracts,to be enforceable, must be supported by consideration and I don't see how joining a God club can be consideration for a salvation contract whereas a lifetime of good works is just a waste of effort....if you join the wrong God club or none at all....

[Flail]

Would Jesus expect Christians to follow his example....give up everything and follow him....go to Iran and spend your life converting and saving Muslims....shouldn't all Christians give up everything worldly and spend their lives trying to save Muslims from Hell? What should you do if you are truly 'born again'???

[myth-one.com]

New creation = born again

Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (II Corinthians 5:17)

Christians change their old behaviors.

Born as a human = born once

Born as a spiritual being at the resurrection = born again.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6:4-5)

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

This scripture is not complicated. The human Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die. At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state!

It is sown in corruption.
It is sown in dishonor.
It is sown in weakness.
It is sown a natural body.

These are characteristics of the physical body.

It is raised in incorruption.
It is raised in glory.
It is raised in power.
It is raised a spiritual body.

These are characteristics of our new angelic spiritual bodies.

So our physical bodies are sown in the earth when we die, and we rest in peace awaiting our resurrection. Christians are awakened to everlasting life at the second coming when born again as spiritual beings.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Once one is born of the spirit they have everlasting life and no longer need their physical body. A physical body would be a handicap in the Kingdom of God if it was even allowed to enter -- which it isn't! (Maybe the "resurrection of the body" theology needs to be reworked.)

_____________________________________________________________________________________

I find it interesting that Christians claim their faith comes with a warranty....as if they have a contractual relationship with the creator of the universe.

Actually, it's called a covenant or testament.

[JoeyKnothead]

New creation = born again

Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (II Corinthians 5:17)

Christians change their old behaviors.

Born as a human = born once

Born as a spiritual being at the resurrection = born again.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6:4-5)

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

This scripture is not complicated. The human Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die. At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state!

It is sown in corruption.
It is sown in dishonor.
It is sown in weakness.
It is sown a natural body.

These are characteristics of the physical body.

It is raised in incorruption.
It is raised in glory.
It is raised in power.
It is raised a spiritual body.

These are characteristics of our new angelic spiritual bodies.

So our physical bodies are sown in the earth when we die, and we rest in peace awaiting our resurrection. Christians are awakened to everlasting life at the second coming when born again as spiritual beings.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Once one is born of the spirit they have everlasting life and no longer need their physical body. A physical body would be a handicap in the Kingdom of God if it was even allowed to enter -- which it isn't! (Maybe the "resurrection of the body" theology needs to be reworked.)

_____________________________________________________________________________________

I find it interesting that Christians claim their faith comes with a warranty....as if they have a contractual relationship with the creator of the universe.

Actually, it's called a covenant or testament.

I would challenge these claims, but I just see no use when folks can just preach all they want and not have to offer evidence.

[drs]

New creation = born again

Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (II Corinthians 5:17)

Christians change their old behaviors.

Born as a human = born once

Born as a spiritual being at the resurrection = born again.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6:4-5)

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

This scripture is not complicated. The human Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die. At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state!

It is sown in corruption.
It is sown in dishonor.
It is sown in weakness.
It is sown a natural body.

These are characteristics of the physical body.

It is raised in incorruption.
It is raised in glory.
It is raised in power.
It is raised a spiritual body.

These are characteristics of our new angelic spiritual bodies.

Agreed new bodies, not new soul(mind or spirit)

So our physical bodies are sown in the earth when we die, and we rest in peace awaiting our resurrection. Christians are awakened to everlasting life at the second coming when born again as spiritual beings.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Once one is born of the spirit they have everlasting life and no longer need their physical body. A physical body would be a handicap in the Kingdom of God if it was even allowed to enter -- which it isn't! (Maybe the "resurrection of the body" theology needs to be reworked.)

Just out of curiosity, what do you call it when I have been indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD and die to this world become a slave of CHRIST for all time?

This is a little more than a change of behaviour don't you think?



Luke 23:43 (New King James Version)
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.�

I agree that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom, but when I die my spirit will go into the presence of GOD and await the resurrection and my fleshly body goes into the ground.

So I am reborn (my mind,my soul) here and now when GOD grants me the gift of true repentence, faith and the indwelling of His HOLY SPIRIT and I will be given a incoruptible body in the reserection.


Other wise we have this

1st birth, flesh and blood, natural birth

2nd birth repentence, faith, the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT and death to this life becoming a slave to CHRIST forever.

3rd birth the reserction of the body?

the reserction of the body is just that, a incoruptable body that your reborn spirit will be given.

[myth-one.com]

Just out of curiosity, what do you call it when I have been indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD and die to this world become a slave of CHRIST for all time?

A Christian and thus an heir to everlasting life.

This is a little more than a change of behaviour don't you think?

Absolutely!

Luke 23:43 (New King James Version)
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.�

Notice that the thief understood they were speaking of a future event:

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (Luke 23:42)

The thief's statement obviously describes an event which will occur in the future, not that day! When thou comest in the future, remember me! God's kingdom will come to earth and God's will shall be done on earth in the form of Jesus Christ at His Second Coming. We are instructed to pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven." When this occurs, the thief wants Jesus to remember him at that time.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

How can the above verse be true if the thief went to heaven? The original Greek language contain no commas. The comma was added by the translators.

The King James translators of the Bible into English obviously believed they were born with an immortal soul. This is indicated by their translation of the word "nephesh" differently depending on whether it referred to man or other animals. Given the translators false belief that they have a "soul" which lives for eternity, they would naturally punctuate Luke 23:43 as it is presented in the King James Bible today to perpetuate this belief. However, it cannot be a logically true statement with the remainder of the Bible. On the other hand, by simply moving the comma and transposing two words, that verse can become a true statement in context with all the other verses. That is:

Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Versus

Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
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As an aside, the scriptures never state that Christians will live in Heaven eternally with God. It states we will live in the Kingdom of Heaven. The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of heaven, Jesus will return to rule the earth forever, and Christians will reign with Him forever. If Jesus will rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and Christians will reign with Him, where does that put Christians forever?
__________________________________________________________________________________

Other wise we have this

1st birth, flesh and blood, natural birth

2nd birth repentence, faith, the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT and death to this life becoming a slave to CHRIST forever.

3rd birth the reserction of the body?

the reserction of the body is just that, a incoruptable body that your reborn spirit will be given.

Where is this written in the scriptures? If an incorruptible physical body is rejoined with your "soul," you cannot remain in the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)