I pray you join my religion

[methylatedghosts]

i will start to pray for alan, that you can experience some real improvement in his behavior and stability, and that you can in time visit a church who will minister to you in a way that resembles more closely the love and compassion of Christ, which is (despite your unfortunate experiences!) real and without limit

This was posted by pyrite in response to one of Confused's posts.

And it kinda got me to think.

I have no problem whatsoever with the first part about praying for health - thats great.

My thoughts are, that Christianity is about "spreading the love of Christ".

But also is it not about allowing people to choose for themselves.

Now, is it not also a part of Christianity, that believes that prayer is powerful enough to change someones health, or even their mind.

Is it therefore right for a Christian to pray that someone join their church or religion, if we take the points "allowing people to choose for themselves" and "that prayer works" as true?

Because, wouldn't this prayer cause a change in the persons mind so that it isn't of their own choice?


(Just to be sure, pyrite, I'm not saying that this is what you are praying for, but just that this is where my thoughts came from )

[pyrite]

for the record, though.. i'm praying that he would be healed first and foremost, but also that he would come to know the love of Christ. this is more important than him 'joining my religion', as i like to draw a major distinction between the two - Christ is the key issue, the religion that is built around him is secondary, and mostly faulty anyway (only some churches are even close to being on track with the church model presented in the book of acts, which is what i believe to be the ideal model)

Did you look at the link I provided above? It shows that a test paid for by the Templeton Foundation, an institution that supports religious research, found that prayer leads to an increase in complications when the person knows they are being prayed for, and no effect when they do not.

yes i did, but its an isolated study with many holes (for example, who were the christian groups, and did they have any relationship with the person for whom they were praying - was there any empathy or genuine faith/concern for the subject). i've seen the power of prayer over sickness even in my own family - far too many times to be ignored, or to be swayed by a single study[/b]

[Galphanore]

for the record, though.. i'm praying that he would be healed first and foremost, but also that he would come to know the love of Christ. this is more important than him 'joining my religion', as i like to draw a major distinction between the two - Christ is the key issue, the religion that is built around him is secondary, and mostly faulty anyway (only some churches are even close to being on track with the church model presented in the book of acts, which is what i believe to be the ideal model)

Did you look at the link I provided above? It shows that a test paid for by the Templeton Foundation, an institution that supports religious research, found that prayer leads to an increase in complications when the person knows they are being prayed for, and no effect when they do not.

yes i did, but its an isolated study with many holes (for example, who were the christian groups, and did they have any relationship with the person for whom they were praying - was there any empathy or genuine faith/concern for the subject). i've seen the power of prayer over sickness even in my own family - far too many times to be ignored, or to be swayed by a single study[/b]

The Christian groups were St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City. Are you saying that prayer requires that you personally know the person? Or that those Christians were unable to feel empathy for someone when they only knew their first name and last initial? Or does god require full names to figure out who's being prayed for? Would you be willing to share your examples of prayer effecting sickness?

[pyrite]

for the record, though.. i'm praying that he would be healed first and foremost, but also that he would come to know the love of Christ. this is more important than him 'joining my religion', as i like to draw a major distinction between the two - Christ is the key issue, the religion that is built around him is secondary, and mostly faulty anyway (only some churches are even close to being on track with the church model presented in the book of acts, which is what i believe to be the ideal model)

Did you look at the link I provided above? It shows that a test paid for by the Templeton Foundation, an institution that supports religious research, found that prayer leads to an increase in complications when the person knows they are being prayed for, and no effect when they do not.

yes i did, but its an isolated study with many holes (for example, who were the christian groups, and did they have any relationship with the person for whom they were praying - was there any empathy or genuine faith/concern for the subject). i've seen the power of prayer over sickness even in my own family - far too many times to be ignored, or to be swayed by a single study[/b]

The Christian groups were St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City. Are you saying that prayer requires that you personally know the person? Or that those Christians were unable to feel empathy for someone when they only knew their first name and last initial? Or does god require full names to figure out who's being prayed for? Would you be willing to share your examples of prayer effecting sickness?

i don't think God always requires personal relationship for effective prayer, it was more an illustration of things we dont know about the study from that single article.. but without knowledge of this Christian group's prayer experiences or level of faith in prayer, which can have HUGE effects on the results of such prayers, it's unwise (in my opinion) to take this study at face value.
an example of prayer in my own family is my niece Gabrielle, who was born with a major heart disorder, unknown of until she turned blue 2 hours after birth from lack of oxygen. she was immediately flown by helicopter to a specialist and operated on for 4-6 hours (unsure). during this surgery (an many later surgeries) there were complications that had the surgeons extremely doubtful about the outcome, but at the exact moments of complication, my parents, who had no knowledge of what was happening, were prompted to pray specifically for the very issues that the surgeons were having in the next room. the surgery turned around for the better, and later my parents discovered that their prayers were completely aligned with the problems the surgeons experienced. This happed at least 3-4 times during my niece's surgeries and recovery, and she is now a very healthy one-and-a-half year old[/i]

[Galphanore]

i don't think God always requires personal relationship for effective prayer, it was more an illustration of things we dont know about the study from that single article.. but without knowledge of this Christian group's prayer experiences or level of faith in prayer, which can have HUGE effects on the results of such prayers, it's unwise (in my opinion) to take this study at face value.

I agree, we need more studies, but it is none the less a very interesting finding.

an example of prayer in my own family is my niece Gabrielle, who was born with a major heart disorder, unknown of until she turned blue 2 hours after birth from lack of oxygen. she was immediately flown by helicopter to a specialist and operated on for 4-6 hours (unsure). during this surgery (an many later surgeries) there were complications that had the surgeons extremely doubtful about the outcome, but at the exact moments of complication, my parents, who had no knowledge of what was happening, were prompted to pray specifically for the very issues that the surgeons were having in the next room. the surgery turned around for the better, and later my parents discovered that their prayers were completely aligned with the problems the surgeons experienced. This happed at least 3-4 times during my niece's surgeries and recovery, and she is now a very healthy one-and-a-half year old[/i]

So instead of thanking the very skilled surgeons who saved her life through hard work, a steady hand and deep knowledge of the workings of the human body....you thank the laymen who prayed for help? As for the claim that their "prayers were completely aligned with the problems the surgeons experienced" I would just like to say one thing,

• The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss; and commit to memory the one, and pass over the other.

--Sir Francis Bacon

The surgeries each lasted four to six hours, do you honestly think that your parents did not pray about every single possible complication that they knew even a little about during that time? If prayer is responsible for healing, why did she need the surgeons at all?

[pyrite]

i don't think God always requires personal relationship for effective prayer, it was more an illustration of things we dont know about the study from that single article.. but without knowledge of this Christian group's prayer experiences or level of faith in prayer, which can have HUGE effects on the results of such prayers, it's unwise (in my opinion) to take this study at face value.

I agree, we need more studies, but it is none the less a very interesting finding.

an example of prayer in my own family is my niece Gabrielle, who was born with a major heart disorder, unknown of until she turned blue 2 hours after birth from lack of oxygen. she was immediately flown by helicopter to a specialist and operated on for 4-6 hours (unsure). during this surgery (an many later surgeries) there were complications that had the surgeons extremely doubtful about the outcome, but at the exact moments of complication, my parents, who had no knowledge of what was happening, were prompted to pray specifically for the very issues that the surgeons were having in the next room. the surgery turned around for the better, and later my parents discovered that their prayers were completely aligned with the problems the surgeons experienced. This happed at least 3-4 times during my niece's surgeries and recovery, and she is now a very healthy one-and-a-half year old[/i]

So instead of thanking the very skilled surgeons who saved her life through hard work, a steady hand and deep knowledge of the workings of the human body....you thank the laymen who prayed for help? As for the claim that their "prayers were completely aligned with the problems the surgeons experienced" I would just like to say one thing,

• The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss; and commit to memory the one, and pass over the other.

--Sir Francis Bacon

The surgeries each lasted four to six hours, do you honestly think that your parents did not pray about every single possible complication that they knew even a little about during that time? If prayer is responsible for healing, why did she need the surgeons at all?

it's not superstition when you see it over and over again! if you read again what i wrote, its not that they 'happened to be praying', but that they 'happened to be praying the exact right thing at the exact right times of absolute necessity' during the surgery, which is not a thing you can write off as coincidence. i was there, you weren't (with respect), so i know how unlikely the situation was. i'm not a superstitious person, i'm critical by nature, so i wouldnt bother posting it if it were a 'kind of cool coincidence' and nothing more
i have no doubt that without the prayers of my parents one of Gabrielle's complications would have been terminal.

i do appreciate the fact that the surgeons were critical for her recovery, without them there would obviously have been no surgery. i believe God used them.. that he stayed their hands and freshened their minds in the times of my parents' prayers, making them alert enough to do the job required. i could give you more information on the events if you like, but i can assure you there was no coincidence involved, and that the prayers were critical

[Galphanore]

i do appreciate the fact that the surgeons were critical for her recovery, without them there would obviously have been no surgery. i believe God used them.. that he stayed their hands and freshened their minds in the times of my parents' prayers, making them alert enough to do the job required. i could give you more information on the events if you like, but i can assure you there was no coincidence involved, and that the prayers were critical

Please do.

[pyrite]

i do appreciate the fact that the surgeons were critical for her recovery, without them there would obviously have been no surgery. i believe God used them.. that he stayed their hands and freshened their minds in the times of my parents' prayers, making them alert enough to do the job required. i could give you more information on the events if you like, but i can assure you there was no coincidence involved, and that the prayers were critical

Please do.

you seem awfully sceptical.. have you never heard of supernatural events resulting from prayer?

[Galphanore]

i do appreciate the fact that the surgeons were critical for her recovery, without them there would obviously have been no surgery. i believe God used them.. that he stayed their hands and freshened their minds in the times of my parents' prayers, making them alert enough to do the job required. i could give you more information on the events if you like, but i can assure you there was no coincidence involved, and that the prayers were critical

Please do.

you seem awfully sceptical.. have you never heard of supernatural events resulting from prayer?

Of course I have heard of them, and every single time I have there are ample examples of alternate explanations that people are not noticing. I myself have had many such examples, notice the "Former Christian" floating under my name? I was a Roman Catholic for fourteen years. They're practically addicted to miracles. And thanks for the "you seem awfully skeptical" compliment.

[pyrite]

i do appreciate the fact that the surgeons were critical for her recovery, without them there would obviously have been no surgery. i believe God used them.. that he stayed their hands and freshened their minds in the times of my parents' prayers, making them alert enough to do the job required. i could give you more information on the events if you like, but i can assure you there was no coincidence involved, and that the prayers were critical

Please do.

you seem awfully sceptical.. have you never heard of supernatural events resulting from prayer?

Of course I have heard of them, and every single time I have there are ample examples of alternate explanations that people are not noticing. I myself have had many such examples, notice the "Former Christian" floating under my name? I was a Roman Catholic for fourteen years. They're practically addicted to miracles. And thanks for the "you seem awfully skeptical" compliment.

i'm sorry, i wasnt trying to insult you by calling you sceptical, i didnt mean for my post to have a personal or sarcastic edge. i was just surprised you actually asked for further info on Gabrielle's story, i assumed my earlier post had said enough

[methylatedghosts]

Ok, I what I'm thinking is, do the people being prayed for, believe it will work? Or do they get worse because of a "Pfff, that won't work, I'd probably just get worse anyway" mentality?

Kind of a placebo effect really. Most peoples prayers generally focus on the negative. "Please don't let me get sick/worse/cancer/etc".

Would it help if the prayers were "Help this person be healthy"? (just random thoughts here....)



To pyrite, I'm just saying where my thoughts came from. No offence at all intended, If you wanted that to be private, maybe you should PM the person instead Maybe keep that in mind for next time? No harsh feelings?