Slavery

[Malleus]

Hi there, Malleus here, long time reader, first time complainer. I am wondering, is the so called moral high ground that various religious groups seem to take warranted, having just read a section of the ten commandments, I came upon a passage thus:

(1) Then God spoke all these words: (2) I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; (3) you shall have no other gods before me. (4) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, (6) but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. (7) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. (8) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work. (10) But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. (11) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. (12) Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. (13) You shall not murder. (14) You shall not commit adultery. (15) You shall not steal. (16) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (17) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Exodus 20:1-17

As you can see, it first talks of how god has removed the followers from the house of slavery, yet seems to make it clear in the bolded sections that it is fine and dandy to own slaves. Opinions???

Question: Is the Bible a piece of Hate literature proposing double standards and endorsing slavery?

[Ami]

The reasoning here is: Not only were we better off being slaves, but it’s what we really wanted anyway.

Not necessarily all, but IMO there are are some.

I know, who endorse slavery and the cruelty inherent in that practice."

Who said those who endorse in slavery must also endorse in cruelty?

And who said I endorse in it? I'm questioning some morality here. Sometimes I question whether or not the values I or other people hold are right. If you find me offensive, tough luck.

Please note, I am not implying that AMI or Achilles are cruel. I am stating that the practice is evil by it’s nature. AMI and Achilles do not understand that slavery is an inherently cruel practice. A quote comes to mind, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

But WHY is it cruel? What's so cruel about it?

No human being is moral enough to have total power over another.

Like it or not, there are very many humans who are controlled by others, moral or not. Maybe it's through slavery, maybe not, and not necessarily through employment either. There is a lot of dominance and power play and manipulation that goes on in the human race, and a lot of submission too. If slavery is immoral because it involves control over another person, and simply immoral because of that, I fail to see the harm. Why is it wrong for another person to have power over another? What if it isn't, and it's simply what a person does with that power, not the fact that the person has power over another in itself? Why does a person have to be perefctly moral to have this power? Is it simply because you fear the slave may be beaten? What if a person was beat up more while free than being a slave?

Only if you redefine the word slave. I sought the employment that I have. I may seek alternate employment. No one owns me. The firm I work for pays me to perform tasks. This is an exchange. Value for value.

Point.

But didn't the slaves before hand get lodgings/ food for the tasks they performed?

Or another example; kids do not have power like their parents do (or at least they didn't before), they do not get paid for the tasks they may be told to do, they do not choose which parents they have. They may get to go out on weekends, unless of course their parents ground them or something, in which case they are then in a position where they have no freedom. Is this cruel?

[Righteous Indignation]

He does, however, hold very close a book he says is the word of God. This book does not make a strong case against slavery which has put him and other Christians in an awkward position of trying to make up excuses (apologies) as to why this is the case.

Well I sincerely thank you for your kind words. Let the games continue.

This section here contains ideas which keep coming up. The bible does not make a case against slavery. Yes I agree that the bible does not specifically say that slavery is wrong. HOWEVER . . .

Jumping from this to "The bible endorses slavery" is not a logical move. Not mentioning a stance on something is basically the opposite of endorsing it. The latter is an action while the other in inaction. How are they the same in the minds of now 3 non-theists?

The bible does not say that slavery is bad outright. It also does not say slavery is good. At most all it does is mention that slavery was occurring. This isn't much different than the account held in many history books. The books talk ABOUT slavery but I have not come across one that says "Oh and by the way kids . . . slavery is a bad thing." This idea is a given and it is not addressed.

Christians obviously understood this to be true. After all look at RI's source which mentions that Christians opposed slavery and especially those master who were cruel. Like the history book, they simply understood this fact.

So will someone explain to me how the bible is evil for mentioning slavery but not expressly saying it was evil, while textbooks do the same thing but there is no problem.

ALSO you have to factor in that while the bible does not outrightly condemn slavery, it does mention many places that actions opposed to slavery are good. . .

Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

Matthew 22:39
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Romans 13:9
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Galatians 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

OH AND BY THE WAY RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION. . .

You wrote:

Here’s some real wisdom: "All men are created equal", but you won’t find that in the Bible.

Pardon me . . .

Romans 3:9
[ No One is Righteous ] What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Did you get this one . . . There is not difference between Jew and Gentile in God's eyes? Did you even read the bible before forming an opinion about it? You obviously missed this section too write what you did in post 77

Here are some more about equality in God's eyes.

Romans 2: 9-11
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

Leviticus 19:15
" 'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Ephesians 6:9
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

And finally . . .

Proverbs 22:2

2 Rich and poor have this in common:
The LORD is the Maker of them all.

Malachi 2:10

Judah Unfaithful
10 Have we not all one Father [a] ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

Now. Anyone have anything to add?

Achilles, you score one with your passages showing everyone is equal under God. I take back my statement that you won’t find anything like, "All men are created equal" in the Bible. And yes, I have read the Bible but forgive me if I have forgotten a thing or two.

I also think many of the non-slavery passages like "love your neighbor as yourself" are good moral principles. Yet, you loose me in that you do not see the contradiction. The Bible is like the man who smokes but tells you smoking is stupid. It’s a mixed message; and therefore, has no meaning except possibly indicating the speaker is ...

Again, there is wisdom in the Bible but there are also statements that just aren’t right. Why can’t we embrace the good and reject the bad? Why is it wrong to separate the treasure from the trash?

[Righteous Indignation]

I want to address this idea that present day work is just another form of slavery. First, if your job is so bad that you equate it with slavery, then find a new one? Maybe even starting your own business. A job does not have to be torture. I know many people who love their work. I have had several jobs myself where I couldn’t wait to go back the next morning. Working for the Forest Service was probably my favorite. I remember those sunny days high on some ridge where I could see for miles and miles. I remember thinking to myself, "I can’t believe they pay me to do this."

Second, you have a choice, a slave does not. Where you work and what you do for a living is your choice. Believe it or not, you are more in control of your life than anyone else. A slave on the other hand is not. They had no choice regarding their being born into slavery and little control over their own life. You have so many choices that it’s difficult to know which one is best. If you are not happy with your life, change it. You can, they can’t.

[Righteous Indignation]

Ami has asked, why is slavery cruel? First let me ask: Why would someone want to own a slave? Well, maybe he needs workers you might say. Wouldn’t a good man simply pay a fair wage for a fair days work? There would be plenty of people willing to work for him. Only a man who doesn’t know how to treat people right needs a slave. He buys himself a slave then he doesn’t have to be fair or just. Or maybe a man wants sex and can’t get it because he’s a half-wit brut, a man with no understanding of the emotional needs of a women. He doesn’t know that the best way to be loved is to give love; so he buys himself a concubine and rapes her repeatedly. I can’t think of a single reason why a good person might want a slave, but can think of many reasons why a bad person would.

Christians believe that humans are evil by nature, so it would seem to follow that: You give an evil being total control over another being and evil happens. Personally, I see evil more as a mental illness not a choice. In the same sense though, you turn total control of a human life over to a sick mind and sick terrible things happens. In my life, I have known : rapists, pedophiles, armed robbers, pimps, addicts, and a murderer. I know there are sick sadistic individuals out there. What happens when these people are allowed to own slaves? Depravity and Cruelty!

[Righteous Indignation]

Am I really the only one who thinks Paul's advice is good common sense?

Was Paul’s advise good common sense for slaves? I have never been a slave but I have been a child and I know the Bible has similar rules for children. Let’s explore a real life situations taken from my life:

My father was a violent man. I remember the nights he would come home from drinking with other men’s blood on his hands. I remember the day when my mother tried to leave him. He came to the house with a gun. "Where’s your mother?", he said. "I don’t know", I said. I lied, of course. He put the gun in my face and tightened his finger on the trigger. I said nothing. His expression suddenly changed he backed off and left. I made sure he was really gone then ran next door to warn my mother. Then there was the night my father came home drunk and started hitting mom. I ran at my father and hit him with all my might but was no match. He knocked me senseless. I didn’t see what happened after that, but my mom told me my father thought he had killed me and took off. When his bothers found out what had happened he got a little of his own medicine. I don’t remember him ever hitting my mother again after that. I’m sure I broke a lot of Bible rules in what I have just said. I disobeyed my father. I lied to my father. I struck my father. I did not fear my father. I did not submit to my father. Yes, I broke the Bible rules but it was the right thing to do.

Let’s look at Peter an Paul’s advice to slaves, again.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."
Colossians 3:22 (NIV)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
Ephesians 6:5(NIV)

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."1 Peter 2:18 (NIV)

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,"
Titus 2:9 (NIV)

Now I ask you, for one moment, imagine yourself a slave child. A child who hears mom screaming and comes running. You find the master beating your mother. Does obey, submit, and don’t cause problems sound like good advise to you? When your master comes looking for your mom with a gun in his hand would you tell him where she is? Would you be the good slave?

Paul’s advise is good if all that’s important is survival, but if you can’t live with the memories from your past, what good is survival. Maybe you would be better off dead then to watch your mother beaten to death and do nothing. Could you live with the guilt of being the one who told the master where your mother was before he shot her? I couldn’t!

"It’s not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival." Adama from Battlestar Galactica

[Ami]

Ami has asked, why is slavery cruel? First let me ask: Why would someone want to own a slave? Well, maybe he needs workers you might say. Wouldn’t a good man simply pay a fair wage for a fair days work? There would be plenty of people willing to work for him. Only a man who doesn’t know how to treat people right needs a slave. He buys himself a slave then he doesn’t have to be fair or just.

If this is so what happens if there was some slave owner out there that wasn't cruel to his slave? Maybe the owner is just after cheap labour. Even if you have the money, why buy one thing when you can get another that's cheaper? And if the above is so true why was it that the slaves where treated more cruelly when the slave owner was away and taken care of person who didn't own it rather than the slave owner himself?

Christians believe that humans are evil by nature, so it would seem to follow that: You give an evil being total control over another being and evil happens.

Not everything is black and white and this doesn't mean everyone is totally evil everyone's a shade of grey.

You seem to imply where there is dominance, or total dominance even, then cruely must follow or that the dominance is caused by a need for cruelty. IMO it's caused by a need for power not cruelty. If someone really wanted to be cruel they'd kidnap a person and lock them up in a cellar and do whatever they want with them. It maybe the case for some sex slaves but with other slaves in history the thing they were used for where the thing they were brought for; work.

Personally, I see evil more as a mental illness not a choice. In the same sense though, you turn total control of a human life over to a sick mind and sick terrible things happens. In my life, I have known : rapists, pedophiles, armed robbers, pimps, addicts, and a murderer. I know there are sick sadistic individuals out there. What happens when these people are allowed to own slaves? Depravity and Cruelty!

So what happens when a not so sick person owns one? Not everyone in the human race is sick or evil and I doubt that every slave owner in history was necessarily sick or evil either.

[Curious]

I can't believe there are people on this forum who are actually willing to endorse slavery. It is pretty obvious that the type of slavery being defended in certain posts within this thread is BAD. If a man and his family are starving, it is a Christian obligation to feed them. To say that it is acceptable to make them slaves is appalling. It would be acceptable to offer the man work as a means of supporting his family but this is not the same thing as becoming a slave.
Nevertheless, there are types of slavery that are acceptable, such as the self imposed slavery of devotion or contrition, or that of a student towards his/her master/teacher.

[Righteous Indignation]

Ami has asked, why is slavery cruel? First let me ask: Why would someone want to own a slave? Well, maybe he needs workers you might say. Wouldn’t a good man simply pay a fair wage for a fair days work? There would be plenty of people willing to work for him. Only a man who doesn’t know how to treat people right needs a slave. He buys himself a slave then he doesn’t have to be fair or just.

If this is so what happens if there was some slave owner out there that wasn't cruel to his slave? Maybe the owner is just after cheap labour. Even if you have the money, why buy one thing when you can get another that's cheaper? And if the above is so true why was it that the slaves where treated more cruelly when the slave owner was away and taken care of person who didn't own it rather than the slave owner himself?

Christians believe that humans are evil by nature, so it would seem to follow that: You give an evil being total control over another being and evil happens.

Not everything is black and white and this doesn't mean everyone is totally evil everyone's a shade of grey.

You seem to imply where there is dominance, or total dominance even, then cruely must follow or that the dominance is caused by a need for cruelty. IMO it's caused by a need for power not cruelty. If someone really wanted to be cruel they'd kidnap a person and lock them up in a cellar and do whatever they want with them. It maybe the case for some sex slaves but with other slaves in history the thing they were used for where the thing they were brought for; work.

Personally, I see evil more as a mental illness not a choice. In the same sense though, you turn total control of a human life over to a sick mind and sick terrible things happens. In my life, I have known : rapists, pedophiles, armed robbers, pimps, addicts, and a murderer. I know there are sick sadistic individuals out there. What happens when these people are allowed to own slaves? Depravity and Cruelty!

So what happens when a not so sick person owns one? Not everyone in the human race is sick or evil and I doubt that every slave owner in history was necessarily sick or evil either.

AMI it’s not a question of whether all slave owners were bad people or only a few. It’s a question of how many must suffer before we decide the institution of slavery is immoral? How many women must be raped? How many families broken? How many beaten? How many injustices before we say slavery is wrong? Can you give me a number?

I’m sure you have experienced hardship in your life. We all have difficulties we must face but our pain is a mirror to the pain of others. We are all brothers and sisters in suffering. The people of the world have looked into their hearts and seen the pain of their slave brothers and sisters. They have all concluded that slavery is wrong and every country on earth has declared slavery illegal. So I ask you; look into your heart, see the suffering in your own life, and feel the pain of the others like you out there.

[Ami]

AMI it’s not a question of whether all slave owners were bad people or only a few. It’s a question of how many must suffer before we decide the institution of slavery is immoral? How many women must be raped? How many families broken? How many beaten? How many injustices before we say slavery is wrong? Can you give me a number?

Look at it this way; hundreds upon hundred of cats and dogs and other animals have been abused because people want to own a pet. Maybe having pets should be banned how many animals must be harmed before owning a cat or dog is finally seen as immoral? Come to think of it how different is owning a pet and slavery different anyway?

I simply wanted to know why slavery is wrong. Can I question morality or should I stick to someone else's blindly? Take away the rapings and whatever you're upset about and consider slavery on it's own. Why would that be wrong? I have not yet recieved an answer to this simply that you are upset about the beatings. What if people who live free lives get beat up more than someone who's enslaved?

It's like that fable where there was a wild dig trying to look for food and half-starving but he comes across this other dog looking well fed, and the wild dog asks how he got his food. The fed dog tells him that his master feeds him and hungry the wild dog accepts the invitation to go back with the fed dog, until he sees the collar on him and learns he can't go where he wants so the wild dog goes off and starves rather than be well fed and well treated.

I would like to know if and why this would be the case. You're arguing that slavery is associated with ill harm and fair enough, but what if it wasn't? Would you still be against it? Is that really why people are against slavery? If it's because of the lack of freedom, like the well-fed dog above, how is the lack of freedom harmful? Because anyone can come along, see this reasoning and think "Hey I'm different I don't beat or rape or anything so I guess it must be okay for me to own a slave."

I’m sure you have experienced hardship in your life

No. Not really

[Righteous Indignation]

AMI it’s not a question of whether all slave owners were bad people or only a few. It’s a question of how many must suffer before we decide the institution of slavery is immoral? How many women must be raped? How many families broken? How many beaten? How many injustices before we say slavery is wrong? Can you give me a number?

Look at it this way; hundreds upon hundred of cats and dogs and other animals have been abused because people want to own a pet. Maybe having pets should be banned how many animals must be harmed before owning a cat or dog is finally seen as immoral? Come to think of it how different is owning a pet and slavery different anyway?

I simply wanted to know why slavery is wrong. Can I question morality or should I stick to someone else's blindly? Take away the rapings and whatever you're upset about and consider slavery on it's own. Why would that be wrong? I have not yet recieved an answer to this simply that you are upset about the beatings. What if people who live free lives get beat up more than someone who's enslaved?

It's like that fable where there was a wild dig trying to look for food and half-starving but he comes across this other dog looking well fed, and the wild dog asks how he got his food. The fed dog tells him that his master feeds him and hungry the wild dog accepts the invitation to go back with the fed dog, until he sees the collar on him and learns he can't go where he wants so the wild dog goes off and starves rather than be well fed and well treated.

I would like to know if and why this would be the case. You're arguing that slavery is associated with ill harm and fair enough, but what if it wasn't? Would you still be against it? Is that really why people are against slavery? If it's because of the lack of freedom, like the well-fed dog above, how is the lack of freedom harmful? Because anyone can come along, see this reasoning and think "Hey I'm different I don't beat or rape or anything so I guess it must be okay for me to own a slave."

I’m sure you have experienced hardship in your life

No. Not really

The question asked by AMI seems to be: If we could separate slavery from the physical abuses would it still be wrong. My answer is "Yes" for the following reasons:

The concept of fairness is one of the most basic principles we use to judge right from wrong. Even monkeys understand this concept (Link). Reward a monkey with a cucumber while giving the other chimps a better reward of fruit and he’ll go ape. He understands it’s not fair. I have thought about why slavery is wrong and one reason that really stands out is; It’s simply not fair! Any interaction between people which benefits one at the expense of another is unfair. A slave works without benefiting from his labor while the master benefits without working. It's not right.

It is selfish in that the master claims rights and freedoms for himself that he is unwilling to grant to his slaves.

It is dishonest in that the master tells himself he is better than the slave which is a lie.

It is foolish in that any man who lives in a society where slavery is acceptable could easy become the slave when circumstances change. The only way to guarantee his own freedom and the freedom of his children is by ending slavery.

It is counterproductive. People will work much harder for themselves than they will for someone else. They also know themselves and what they are capable of better than any master could. Imagine if Shakespeare had been forced into slavery. We may never have heard "To be or not to be". Suppose Jefferson had been the slave and not the master. How much of what makes America great would have been lost? Suppose Jesus had been a slave in the mines. No Christianity! People are a better judge of their own assets and potential than anyone else. They know more about how they can best benefit society and themselves.

In summary; slavery is unfair, selfish, dishonest, counterproductive, and foolish. Which I believe justifies the statement, "Slavery is wrong even if we ignore the rapes, beatings, and other cruelties."