Foundation of the USA Unbiblical ?

[McCulloch]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ...
... For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

"Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?"
But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Question for Debate: Did the establishment of the United States of America directly contravene biblical teaching?

[1John2_26]

I don't mean this in a mean way but I laughed so hard at the Larry Flynt and skeptics rebuttal, I'll need time to post a reply.

And there has literally been a book written about Hollywood Babylon.

Quote:
"When in the course of human events . . . "

Those days are rapidly coming again for a dying America.

Interesting idea: what would be the list of causes to impel separation?

Liberals. The word has now become a cultural classification. A bad one in almost every way.

http://www.christianexodus.com/

These guys are a tiny bit off-base but mostly on target. I wish them well in their endeavor.

ChristianExodus.org is moving thousands of Christians to South Carolina to reestablish constitutionally limited government founded upon Christian principles. It is evident that the U.S. Constitution has been abandoned under our current federal system, and the efforts of Christian activism to restore our Godly republic have proven futile over the past three decades. The time has come for Christian Constitutionalists to protect our liberties in a State like South Carolina by interposing the State's sovereign authority retained under the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

The foundations of the United States of America were laid upon these principles, that the rights of man are God-given and inviolate, that the sole purpose of government is to secure these rights, and that the only just powers of government are those specifically delegated by the people. The federal government is restrained by Constitutional Law, the Sovereign States, and the Citizens of those States, each one made in the image of God, with individual rights to life, liberty, and property.

The federal government was created to protect us from the very tyranny it now practices against us...

We are violated in our right to Life:

Unborn babies are subject to slaughter by abortionists and their own mothers under any pretext whatsoever.
The elderly, infirm, and disabled are subject to forced starvation and involuntary euthanasia. 1
Citizens are subjected to the perils of imperialist entanglements abroad, and left unprotected from alien invaders at home.
We are violated in our right to Liberty:

Abortion continues against the wishes of many States and in violation of the reserved powers of the States under the 10th Amendment.
Christians are denied their rights to free speech, freedom of the press, the display of religious monuments, and other expressions of faith in the public sphere. 1 2 3
Citizens are denied their rights to keep and bear arms sufficient for the restraint of tyranny.
Men, women, and children are involuntarily exposed to the corrupting influences of homosexuality, pornography, and other perversities protected and financed by the national government.
Sodomy is now legal and celebrated as "diversity" by order of the U.S. Supreme Court rather than condemned as perversion. Another usurpation of the rights of the States by the federal government.
Families are subject to the trauma of no-fault divorce, often used to unjustly deny fathers equal protection under law and fundamental family rights.
Children are seized from good parents arbitrarily and under false pretexts, and placed in the care of the state, as driven by federal funding.
Federal courts prevent children in public schools from freely practicing Christianity.
Children who pray in public schools are subject to prosecution. 1
Federal expenditures on education are unconstitutional and promote revisionist history and statist sociology. Our schools continue to teach the discredited theory of Darwinian evolution. 1
We are violated in our right to Property:

Private property is subject to unreasonable restrictions upon use and development by illegal federal environmental and zoning regulations.
Private homes may now be arbitrarily seized by government for any reason whatsoever.
Private commerce is restricted by overbearing and unwarranted government regulation and taxation.
Citizens are taxed without their consent in ways that are unjust, unreasonable, and contrary to the public welfare.
Christians have seen and known all these things, and yet we have been unable to stem the tide against our liberties and our families. The Republican Party, which once promised to reduce the overbearing size of government, after gaining the reigns of power has expanded government to unprecedented reaches. Attempts at reform have proven futile for over three decades, and do not hold promise at the national level since Republicans and Democrats alike have abandoned regard for the Constitution and the proper role of government. ChristianExodus.org offers the opportunity to try a strategy not yet employed by millions of Christian conservatives who are geographically spread out and diluted at the national level. If we really mean to return to the Christian principles of constitutional American government, we must start at the local level and accelerate the process through mass migration. This is the Christian Exodus.

Americans have the right to revolt against America.

[McCulloch]

The founding of America was by the will of God. That is biblical.

Let's be perfectly clear. This statement could be taken two different ways. The way that 1John, I believe intended it, that the omnipotent God directs the affairs of humanity. In that sense, the founding of the independant United States of America was according to the will of God, as was the fouding of the Soviet Union. If you believe in the God described in the Christian bible, then this is truth.
However, the question for debate is more about whether those who founded the American republic were following biblical principles.

[youngborean]

I would say loosely based on scripture. The scriptures you cited were all how the Christian should deal with governments that are already in place. There are no instructions as to what to do when making your own government. So I really don't think that the scriptures you cited were relavant. Unless you are saying that the Rebellion against the British was unbiblical, then in a certain sense I would agree with you. I do believe the notion of self determination through free will is a value of christianity supported by the scripture. At least the ideal that all should have the opportunity to choose how they want to live. (not that america or any nation has ever lived up to this ideal) Now the Christian interpretation of the bible is not the only way to come to this conclusion, nor do all christians believe in supporting the free-will of all, so that is why I opt for loosely biblical.

[McCulloch]

I would say loosely based on scripture. The scriptures you cited were all how the Christian should deal with governments that are already in place.

And British colonial government was not "in place" at the time of the revolution?

There are no instructions as to what to do when making your own government.

But there are principles regarding interpersonal relations.

So I really don't think that the scriptures you cited were relavant. Unless you are saying that the Rebellion against the British was unbiblical, then in a certain sense I would agree with you.

Exactly, the American Revolution and the Declaration of Independence were both unbiblical, in the sense that they were motivated by values contradicting the teachings of the NT.

I do believe the notion of self determination through free will is a value of christianity supported by the scripture.

On an individual basis and within limits.

At least the ideal that all should have the opportunity to choose how they want to live.

Show me where that is taught in the Bible.

Not that america or any nation has ever lived up to this ideal.

No one lives up to ideals.

[1John2_26]

However, the question for debate is more about whether those who founded the American republic were following biblical principles.

They - or, more accurately - many, were not.

Enlightenment thinkers yes, but Biblical Christianity was so derided by guys like Paine and Jefferson as to make it clear that Christianity was not the founding principles espoused by at least these major players.

But,

Psuedo-Christianity or better yet, a plagarized version of Christian beliefs, it is safe to say, drove the egotism of the founders.

My views are not widely held by the majority of conservative Christians I know, but it sure seems I have the right opinion when you read about the founders of this pathetic little experiment known as the United States. Traitors are not usually good role models.

[youngborean]

And British colonial government was not "in place" at the time of the revolution?

They were. That being said I believe there was a religious view at that time that the government (in it's union with the church) was promoting idolatry by setting themselves up as god's authority, and they viewed themselves akin to Daniel. Here is an essay that talks about this issue (although I do not agree with all of the content, the quoted sermon was what sparked my interest):

http://www.belcherfoundation.org/standi ... ocracy.htm

Therefore a moral heirarchy needed to be established to resolve what was more important, commiting idolatry or submission to authority. I really believe this is how the religious viewed their split from England, and of course potential political and economic gain were also temptations.

But there are principles regarding interpersonal relations.

And the position was that those interpersonal provisions were being violated by England. There was a belief that there was a responsiblity of man to take care of their own responisibilty (obedience to God) on their own terms and not by a mixture of Man's authority (government) and the proposed authority of God (the high anglican church in this case).

Exactly, the American Revolution and the Declaration of Independence were both unbiblical, in the sense that they were motivated by values contradicting the teachings of the NT.

I think they believed as Christians that the unbiblical contradiction was placed their by England. In other words they were trying to solve their imposed condradiction of trying to submit authority without commiting idolatry. They decided that not committing idolatry spiritually trumps submission to authority, as seen through a usage of Daniel as a spiritual model.

On an individual basis and within limits.

Well yes for most. I guess they felt that the disdain of the Anglican chuch for their religion offered, and their subsequent view that anglicans were coming to Papal lead them no alternative but to create a situation that was just.

Show me where that is taught in the Bible.

The place I would start is here:

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

and also here:
Micah 6:8He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

The provision of God is that everyone was free in society to choose him and recieve a blessing or reject him and recieve a curse, this is a common theme of the bible (regardless of the vehicle). I think they were beginning with these principles to make their decision. They felt that balance was being destroyed by the government being linked with religion and thereby forcing some sort of religion upon the people.

Does that make it right in terms of Christianity I think is the next question?

Well I undoubted think that some Christians at the time thought so. But as you have pointed that is a violation of some proposed principles of the bible (submission). But they (christians of the day) also used the bible to justify their position. So we can't really say that the position was unbiblical, but just a different Christian interpretation based on the parts of the bible that they tought were important. Probably akin to breaking the Sabbath to do good in their mind. The declaration of independence is clearly a religious document in my mind since it claims it's justification through a deity. Therefore the audience and context must be noted. To me, they are essentially saying, "our doctrine is different that yours" in that England, they believed, was turning into a papacy which they thought was entirely unbiblical and was the basis for them becoming collectively protestant in the first place.

[Cephus]

Clearly many of the truth loving American Christians are making serious misrepresentations.

Yeah, now there's a surprise. Obviously, the reason these Christians are basically lying is because they're desperate. They need to believe that they're special, and that their country is special, so they invent all this religious nonsense to make themselves feel better.

After all, that's all religion is, a way to make yourself feel important when you're really not.