Foundation of the USA Unbiblical ?

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McCulloch
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Foundation of the USA Unbiblical ?

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

The writers of the US Declaration of Indepdence wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ...
... For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent
Paul in his letter to the Romans wrote:Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Paul in his letter to Titus wrote:Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
Peter wrote:Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
Matthew wrote:"Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?"
But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Question for Debate: Did the establishment of the United States of America directly contravene biblical teaching?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #2

Post by juliod »

Question for Debate: Did the establishment of the United States of America directly contravene biblical teaching?
What's to debate? Obviously the answer is "yes".

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Post #3

Post by McCulloch »

juliod wrote:What's to debate? Obviously the answer is "yes".

Then why do the fundamentalists keep coming up with
  • BIBLE INSPIRED AMERICA'S FOUNDING DOCUMENTS
  • The faith of the Founding Fathers. America's Christian Heritage. Our Founders were led by God Almighty to accomplish the establishment of a nation ...
  • America's Godly Heritage The facts nonetheless reveal the true convictions of our founders. Without question, they believed that although no one Christian denomination should dominate the nation, the principles of the Bible and Christianity should underlie our government and American education as well.
  • Criminalizing Christianity Our nation's founding religion
  • What Would Be The Attitude of America's Founding Fathers Toward the Road Map? As we all know, the Founding Fathers were sincerely religious and also overwhelmingly Christian. They not only read the Bible, they lived by the Bible. ... Eighteenth century Christian Americans saw their revolution in religious and largely Biblical terms. ... The Founding Fathers took their Bible seriously. Americans have always thought of themselves as a Christian nation, tolerant of all religions. so long as they accepted traditional Judeo-Christian morality as set forth in the Bible. Even today, up to 85% of Americans identify themselves as Christians.
Clearly many of the truth loving American Christians are making serious misrepresentations.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #4

Post by juliod »

Clearly many of the truth loving American Christians are making serious misrepresentations.
Well, duh!

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Post #5

Post by 1John2_26 »

One being Abraham Lincoln.

He thought God was involved in affairs of the state.

Oh the Christians of America!

Read the words of Lincoln and feel them in your soul.
Second Inaugural Address
Washington, D.C.
March 4, 1865

This theologically intense speech has been widely acknowledged as one of the most remarkable documents in American history.

The London Spectator said of it, "We cannot read it without a renewed conviction that it is the noblest political document known to history, and should have for the nation and the statesmen he left behind him something of a sacred and almost prophetic character."

Journalist Noah Brooks, an eyewitness to the speech, said that as Lincoln advanced from his seat, "a roar of applause shook the air, and, again and again repeated, finally died away on the outer fringe of the throng, like a sweeping wave upon the shore. Just at that moment the sun, which had been obscured all day, burst forth in its unclouded meridian splendor, and flooded the spectacle with glory and with light." Brooks said Lincoln later told him, "Did you notice that sunburst? It made my heart jump."

According to Brooks, the audience received the speech in "profound silence," although some passages provoked cheers and applause. "Looking down into the faces of the people, illuminated by the bright rays of the sun, one could see moist eyes and even tearful faces."

Brooks also observed, "But chiefly memorable in the mind of those who saw that second inauguration must still remain the tall, pathetic, melancholy figure of the man who, then inducted into office in the midst of the glad acclaim of thousands of people, and illumined by the deceptive brilliance of a March sunburst, was already standing in the shadow of death."
Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States.
At this second appearing to take the oath of the presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement, somewhat in detail, of a course to be pursued, seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention, and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself; and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured.

On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it--all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war--seeking to dissolve the Union, and divide effects, by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came.

One eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the Southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was, somehow, the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union, even by war; while the government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other.

It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged.

The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"

If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?

Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether"

With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.

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Post #6

Post by juliod »

Oh the Christians of America!
Are you agreeing that the founding of the US was an unbiblical event, and that any claims that the US is a "christian nation" are offensive to the christian religion?

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Post #7

Post by Cathar1950 »

Paul was a Roman.
Peter wasn't written by Peter.
Titus was not written by Paul.
What is biblical?
Lincoln was a Deist as were most of the founding fathers.
My question:
How can anything be against God's will? Does God create nations and destroy them?
Wasn't Cyrus his(God's) Messiah?

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Post #8

Post by micatala »

I notice that Lincoln was clear that, even though he thought his actions in fighting the Civil War were necessary and he was trying to achieve a good end, he did not deign to say that 'God is on my side.' In fact, he was clear to point out that he did not know whether this was the case or not, only that he was doing his utmost to follow the right 'as God gave him to see the right'. He was much more concerned about doing his utmost to judge his own actions in seeking to follow the Godly way, than in criticizing his opponents or insisting that they were somehow unGodly.

Is God involved in the affairs of state?

Yes, to the extent that men and women of faith are involved in governance. BUt Lincoln does not say that any man can deign to speak for God, to claim the right to rule in God's stead. He does say God's will is unfathomable and that it will be done, but he does not say that he, Lincoln, had the power to enforce his will as God's will.

It seems to me that many in the church today are forgetting to make this distinction.

At any rate, to address the OP, one could certainly make a reasonable case that foundation of the U.S. proceeded from principles other than those found in the Bible. Democracy I don't believe is discussed anywhere in the Bible and empire and monarchy of one sort or another would have been the rule. However, I don't think this necessarily means the foundation of the U.S. was an 'anti-Christian' or 'anti-Biblical' event.

The 18th century was a very different time than the first, and the men who founded the U.S. were a product of their time, just as were Paul and Peter, and yes even Jesus. I think the words of Paul were addressed to those of his time. Were he writing in the 18th century, he might have written very differently.

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Post #9

Post by 1John2_26 »

Quote:
Oh the Christians of America!
Are you agreeing that the founding of the US was an unbiblical event, and that any claims that the US is a "christian nation" are offensive to the christian religion?
The founding of America was by the will of God. That is biblical. Any claims that America was founded as a Christian Nation, yes, is an insult to the Gospel of Christ "in my opinion."

"By their fruits you will know them." America is a porno mill now.

"America" is a godless country it appears, no matter how hard the word "God" is injected into the mix.

Christians get blamed for many things they had no part in other than as citizens of the country started by egotists. When the truth of who did what ever gets to be told, it would be easy to see the beauty of Christians helping this country in its best endeavors. Same thing in Europe. The miltary men take a country in the name of Spain or England, France or Viking, and the Christians pick up the pieces.

Ask a Katrina victim if things have changed? Ask a starving African who is feeding them?

It is not Larry Flynt or by the money attained from the book sales by anti-Christian skeptics.

The foundation of America is nothing anymore special than Babylon on which it bases its moral values. We see what God did with Babylonian politics.

I disagree with any Christian fundamentalist that asserts that America is or ever was a Christain nation. I have had difficult encounters with members of my own church over this.

Also, Abraham Lincoln and the Northern States had no constitutional reasons to stop the Sounthern States from succeeding. Slavery was a Christian issue. Slave owners were wrong and those opposing slavery were right. God settled the issue.

"When in the course of human events . . . "

Those days are rapidly coming again for a dying America.

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Post #10

Post by palmera »

Also, Abraham Lincoln and the Northern States had no constitutional reasons to stop the Sounthern States from succeeding. Slavery was a Christian issue. Slave owners were wrong and those opposing slavery were right. God settled the issue.
While the constitutionality of Lincoln's actions is still debated today, the issue of slavery was not simply "a Christian issue", but a human issue; and, I might add that humans settled the issue. No divine hand came down smiting plantation owners. To say that G-d settled the issue is to trivialize the hundreds of thousands who died fighting on both sides.
The founding of America was by the will of God. That is biblical.
Where?
The foundation of America is nothing anymore special than Babylon on which it bases its moral values. We see what God did with Babylonian politics.
Really? I thought that the Declaration of Independence had a unique place in history; that the founding of the United States was one not as fully conceived and enacted before. It seems to me that the foundation of American morality is clearly stated in this document. What exactly are "Babylonian politics" and Babylonian morality?
Ask a Katrina victim if things have changed? Ask a starving African who is feeding them?

It is not Larry Flynt or by the money attained from the book sales by anti-Christian skeptics.
Do you actually know what Larry Flynt does with his money? Do you know what "anti-Christian skeptics" do with their money? These assertions are mere conjecture based on your prejudices and biases and don't prove anything.
"When in the course of human events . . . "

Those days are rapidly coming again for a dying America.

Interesting idea: what would be the list of causes to impel separation?
Men at ease have contempt for misfortune
as the fate of those whose feet are slipping.

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