Is it possible for religion and evolution to coexist?

[Grumpy]

Below is an open letter which has been signed by over 7500 clergy and pastors attesting to the compatibility of scientific discoveries with the tenets of religious thought.

An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science

Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.

Wisdom indeed!!!

Your thoughts???

Grumpy 8)

[Rob]

Rob, are you a Christian, if so how were you saved?

One of the fruits of the spirit my friend is the love of truth and loyalty thereto, and the courage and faith to be willing to follow it wherever it may lead.

You, by your refusal to honor the truth, but your persistent willingness to spread lies, half-truths, and deception, show you love not the truth and willingly choose to become the father of lies. This is proof you know not the living Spirit of Truth nor know the living mind of Christ.

You have thoughtlessly posted lies and falsehoods, which I have carefully shown to be falsehoods with facts and evidence. Do you have the faith and courage, the living faith, to admit you have erred and to remain loyal to the truth?

If you would show that love and loyalty to truth, you would make it easier for me to support some of the statements you parrot which contain some truth, but if you are just going to thoughtlessly and mindlessly post falsehoods with no regard for truth, you deserve not such support, for then you are willingly mixing evil with good, and truth with falsehood.

Sadly, those religionists such as yourself, that show such disloyalty to truth and are so irresponsible that they parrot falsehoods and lies without the slightest regard if they are true or not, are in reality showing the truth that ignorance begets ignorance. Indeed, those who love the truth must ever be on guard against those who have self-chosen ignorance in the face of facts and truth, and refuse to modify their literalistic interpretations of scripture in the face of living truth, and would drag all of us back into the dark ages of ignorance and superstition and blind religious dogma, for no other reason than they fail to see that the fact of organic evolution is not in the least in compatible with living experiential faith in and with God.

[Sender]

I am not ashamed to say I love the Lord Jesus with all my heart, I certainly wouldn't avoid the question like you say I do.

I am NOT a liar as you so disrespectfully say, I believe what I am presenting is the truth. Because it differs from your beliefs, you say I am lying.

How rude, intolerant and bigoted you are.

These man of God are scientist, chemist, physicist, ect., yet you give NO ONE any credit for anything that doesn't jive with your theory. You are too closed minded to have an intelligent exchange of idea's and possibilities.

If you have already heard of these, and don't care for them, why not just move along and not respond to my post? Perhaps someone out there would like to learn at least what some of the things others are saying.

Stop trying to control the forum, just don't respond would be the least best thing you can do.

Trying to intimidate, whinning to the moderator, name calling ect., simply is counterproductive and not proper etiquette.

You want the forum to back you when it suits your purpose, but when it doesn't you'll dismiss the rules to get your own agenda across. Typical acts of desperation, and not very attractive either to be honest.

Next negitive post from you directed at me I will have no choice but to ignore you as well. Not my preference, but for the sake of harmany you will leave me no other choice.

[Cathar1950]

Sender wrote:

If you have already heard of these, and don't care for them, why not just move along and not respond to my post? Perhaps someone out there would like to learn at least what some of the things others are saying.

I have read these poor arguments many times. If some one wants to learn your posts from others that is misinformation and disinformation that is fine but you have to expect some one is going to question you on them. Why would anyone want to learn these things others are saying with out question if they are flawed? Being a follower of Jesus or being "save" does not mean that they have to believe your sad defence of Creationism. I would think you would be grateful that grumpy in his own gruff way has tried to keep you from repeating errors and poor thinking.
You should be grateful. Blessed assurance is intended for your relationship with God not pseudo-science trying to prove a collection of books poems and letters correct in ways the writing were never intended.

[Lotan]

I am NOT a liar as you so disrespectfully say, I believe what I am presenting is the truth.

Sender, simply posting the ideas of others because you 'believe' those ideas does not constitute a 'debate'. Unless you have enough basic understanding of those ideas to defend them according to some more objective criteria than your personal belief, then you are merely making (others') assertions, or 'preaching'. It would be no different if I, or someone else, posted one Stephen Jay Gould quote after another, and called that their 'argument'. The result isn't a debate; it's spam. If you are unable to support these assertions with evidence and argument as suggested in the forum rules, would you kindly restrict yourself to subjects of which you are at least knowledgable enough to carry on a simple exchange of ideas?
Thanks,
Lotan

[Sender]

Why can I not use resourses availible to me? I know what I believe.

My strength is knowing the word of God. Half of you guys have never read the bible yet you try to talk like you know what it says.

I see no wrong in going to resourses that will articulate far better than I am able to get my point across.

[Sender]

Those scientists who believe that natural forces made everything, including you and me, think that we have inherited all that we are. However, the Bible says that all living things reproduce "after their kind." Thousands of years of experience in selective breeding have shown that plants and animals always reproduce after their own kind. Not only is every known example of a mutation harmful, but living things resist attempts to change them too much.

Geneticists have discovered a genetic basis for the Bible's statement that all creatures reproduce after their own kinds. Keep in mind that "species" and "kinds" are not necessarily the same. Fruit fly studies show that when some species of fruit fly try to mate with other species, the resulting offspring are either sterile females or die before maturity. In one instance, however, some males survive to adulthood. The so-called "rescue" gene that allows this to happen weakens the general health of the males. Carriers of the gene are sterile. This leaves a huge mystery for evolutionists. Think about it. Parents that carry this rescue gene don't benefit from it. Offspring that inherit it can't pass it on. As one evolutionist said, how could this possibly have evolved?

Living things do reproduce after their kind, just as the Bible says. In this instance, God has found a way to do this that challenges the very basis of evolution.

References: On the rescue gene and the origin of species. Discover, Aug. 1987. p

bump bump

[Lotan]

I see no wrong in going to resourses that will articulate far better than I am able to get my point across.

Of course there's nothing wrong with that, but then what do you do when someone refutes those ideas, or presents evidence to the contrary? Change the subject?

Half of you guys have never read the bible yet you try to talk like you know what it says.

Which "half" do you suppose I am in?

[Sender]

I dunno lotan, I do know I like your paricipation in threads I am in. Why don't you tell me a little more about you self. You shared with me once awhile back, but as far as the bible is concerned, I'd have to read more.

[Lotan]

Why don't you tell me a little more about you self.

For two reasons...
1) This is not the correct forum for that particular dialogue.
2) You haven't answered my question, which I will re-iterate:

If you don't have a basic understanding of the ideas that you 'copy and paste' to this forum then what do you do when someone refutes those ideas, or presents evidence to the contrary? Change the subject?

[Sender]

lotan...

1. Then I have no idea to the answer to the question you asked.

2. What I WILL NOT do is go on a personal attack getting everyone OT like a couple of guys have done this past week.

I would go get some more research material if that is ok. I would also sometime interject my own words if I am able. I do not claim to know it all.

Ok number one from list of twenty five...

Energy creating energy. I say it never happened, what do you say?