Are there any current events which prove the Bible?

[McCulloch]

In another thread

You would be surprised at how much my views are drawn on literally empirical means. The 5pm news is proving the Bible right every single day.

I have watched the 6pm news and the 10 pm news and read the morning newspaper. I have not seen anything which by any stretch of my imagination would constitute a proof of anything in the Bible. Do Canadian news sources edit out these biblical proofs? Am I missing some subtlety?

Question for debate: Are there any current events which prove the Bible?

[AlAyeti]

Sodomy is a civil right and teaching that sodomy is unnatural and deviant behavior is a violation of hate crimes legislation.

"There will come a day when sound doctrine will not be tolerated and they will gather to themselves teachers that will tell them whatever they want to hear." Paul wrote this to Timothy in what are referred to as the pastoral letters. A long time ago.

Now in "Christian" churches same-sex couples are being celebrated in marriage and given this "right" by the "new" biblical "teachers."

"In their haughtiness . . ." the poor and needy and the widow and orphan are suffering immensely. Ezekiel is eerily accurate then as now.

Jesus is still hated after all these years. And, like He predicted, so are His followers.

But "some" that "call themselves His followers" are proclaimed as heroes by the same people that listen and cheer on the new teachers of "biblical doctrine."

[juliod]

"There will come a day when sound doctrine will not be tolerated and they will gather to themselves teachers that will tell them whatever they want to hear." Paul wrote this to Timothy in what are referred to as the pastoral letters. A long time ago.

Special question: Was there ever a 10-year period in the history of christendom that this prophesy was not considered to be true? Indeed, wasn't this passage about the first century AD?

DanZ

[McCulloch]

For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables.

Some scholars place the writing of this letter to Timothy at about 64 to 68 CE. The Jewish nation was on the brink of open rebellion, the fledgling christian religion was beset with controversy and schism. It would have been rather surprising if Paul had not included a warning against false teachers. The very nature of biblical writings, the contradictions and ambiguities, virtually guarantee that for as long as there are those who claim to follow the bible, there will be heresy.

So, it seems to be a no-brainer that Paul would warn against false teachers and that some modern christians will teach and practice those things which other modern christians deem to be heretical. Now, if Paul had specifically said that liberal christians would seek to influence lawmakers to ease discriminatory laws against homosexuals ...

However,

The 5pm news is proving the Bible right every single day.
(emphasis mine)

Since you are a self professed skeptic and empiricalist, I have to wonder what sense of the word proof (or proving) you are using. Proof is a term from logic and mathematics describing an argument from premise to conclusion using strictly logical principles. In mathematics, theorems or propositions are established by logical arguments from a set of axioms, the process of establishing a theorem being called a proof. A mathematical proof leaves no room for other possibilities. Science and the courts, on the other hand, has to use a looser definition of proof, one where the other possibilities are shown to be improbable. Your example falls short of any definition of proof that I have encountered.

[micatala]

"There will come a day when sound doctrine will not be tolerated and they will gather to themselves teachers that will tell them whatever they want to hear."

Yes, I would have to agree with juliod that this statement, for example, is essentially always going to be true because there will always be 'false teachers' and those who might even be termed demagogues who preach more to attract followers by preaching what people want to here than 'sound doctrine.'

Also, what constitutes 'sound doctrine' is often highly debatable. I, for one, find much of the preaching related to the purported imminence of the 'end times' highly questionable, not at all in the realm of sound doctrine, and often calculated simply to get people emotionally excited and diverted from other issues that are actually of much greater importance.

I heard a talk today by a minister who noted that there are over 2000 verses related to our call as believers to help the poor. I wonder how many verses there are that deal with homosexuality? with abortion? Jesus himself said NOTHING about homosexuality, and NOTHING about abortion. It seems to me that those who so adamantly preach on these topics, and ignore the harder message of helping the poor, are telling people what there itching ears want to hear, and ignoring sound doctrine.

Does the Bible accurately reflect current events? I would say in many ways yes, but I might change the statement to say that 'the Bible accurately reflects the overall human condition, as it plays out in the ongoing events in our lives.' For example, Jesus says 'the poor you will always have with you.' This is an unfortunate part of our human condition on earth. As Christians, we are called to alleviate the poverty and suffering we see as best we can, while possibly having to accept we will never eradicate it.

Does this example serve as evidence for 'proof' of the Bible? Perhaps not, but I don't think of the Bible as a document for which 'scientific proof' is particularly relevant. It is addressed to our moral and spiritual nature, and as such, the best proof is probably the extent to which those who claim it as inspired or worthy of study and actually follow its teachings are of benefit to the world in which they live. Certainly one can cite numerous examples where this is the case. Dr. Martin Luther King Junior, the late Pope John Paul II, countless anonymous workers in the homeless shelters and soup kitchens of the world, etc., etc.

[Qazwa]

Peace to you micatala,

Good observations.

Abortion is nothing but a soft word for murder. So I think its important. But you are right. I dont see many places in the bible where homosexuality is condemned but its there often enough to let us know its wrong.

It a sign of the times I think. Abortion and homosexuality are hot button topics a politician can place in has or her bag of tricks pulling them out when it comes time to run for office. So these issues stay on the front burner.

Ever see a canadate for political office run on giving freely to the poor?

Qazwa

[AlAyeti]

Now, is the following in old writings or written about any University student press endeavor today? Or, can the things mentioned by Paul, sound exactly like what is debated here today?

Sounds like Paul was at spring break or two. Or that he sat and watched CNN or MTV for a couple of minutes . . .

24So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.

25Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.

26That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

27And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

28When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

29Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.

30They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. 31They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. 32They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

Sonds like todays newscast.

Little wonder that the book of Romans causes "Hate Crimes" legislation TODAY the same way it did in Nero's day. And the same kind of people attacking Christians because of it.

[juliod]

Sonds like todays newscast.

Really? I think you should get your "news" from a news stand, not a porno shop. I have never, once, seen a news broadcast start with a report that two women were having sex with each other. Your sexual obsessions are once again clouding your reason.

BTW, vs 28 says that you should let homosexuals do what they want. If it's good enough for god, why not for you? You can still call it "evil" if you need.

Also, vs 29 is a clear description of christians, not homosexuals.

DanZ

[micatala]

24So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.

25Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.

26That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

27And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

28When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

29Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.

30They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. 31They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. 32They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

I would note that we have had some discussion of possible interpretations of these and other scriptures relating to homosexuality in the Does God Teach Discrimination Thread? and theDo You Fund Evil? thread, especially pages 3 and following.

I will summarize my view that there is not support in the New Testament for discriminating against homosexuals as a matter of civil law, that it is debatable whether the group that Paul refers to as 'homosexual offenders' is the same as the group we today think of as homosexuals, and that the sins mentioned, including homosexuality, are not necessarily sins in and of themselves but are sins because they are a result of or concommitant with a heart that knowingly rejects God, even when they accept God as God and as good. I would suggest that it is entirely possible and consistent with scripture that a homosexual person who in good conscious and with faith in God comes to the conclusion that homosexuality is part of who he or she is, that God accepts this and there is no sin involved.

As it relates to this thread, I would reiterate that the descriptions provided in the verses quoted by Al show conditions or actions within society that are mostly ongoing, and occur in many societies from time to time, or in some cases, almost constantly. These could be taken as support that the Bible (accurately or not, you can use your judgment) describes current conditions because these conditions are an inherent part of the ongoing human condition.

[AlAyeti]

Really? I think you should get your "news" from a news stand, not a porno shop. I have never, once, seen a news broadcast start with a report that two women were having sex with each other. Your sexual obsessions are once again clouding your reason.

My obseesion is about the attack on decent Christian people by the homosexual agenda and its activist priests. But, I view them third on the list of the most dangerous and intolerant. Homosexuals dwell behind Muslims and Atheists.

BTW, vs 28 says that you should let homosexuals do what they want. If it's good enough for god, why not for you? You can still call it "evil" if you need.

How nice of you to let me believe the Bible the way it is written. I am amazed that you would see the accuracy of what Paul was describing in the homosexual behavior of today.

Also, vs 29 is a clear description of christians, not homosexuals.

Like I always say, judge the actions. You will neveer see me denying facts and truth. This is why I had to leave atheism. Too much emotionalism.

///

I would note that we have had some discussion of possible interpretations of these and other scriptures relating to homosexuality in the Does God Teach Discrimination Thread? and theDo You Fund Evil? thread, especially pages 3 and following.

doesn't change the incredible accuracy of paul about homosexuals and their behavior.

I will summarize my view that there is not support in the New Testament for discriminating against homosexuals as a matter of civil law, that it is debatable whether the group that Paul refers to as 'homosexual offenders' is the same as the group we today think of as homosexuals,

His description is utterly unbelievably accurate to the politics of today. especially mentioning people approving of others to do wrong. The bobblehaedism of politically correct club members has one common theme. Support of licentiousness as a civil right.

and that the sins mentioned, including homosexuality, are not necessarily sins in and of themselves but are sins because they are a result of or concommitant with a heart that knowingly rejects God, even when they accept God as God and as good.

In no other time in history was their Darwinism presnted to wipe away God and license and approve homosexuality. Evolution is a religion now that proclaims relativism as a dogma.

I would suggest that it is entirely possible and consistent with scripture that a homosexual person who in good conscious and with faith in God comes to the conclusion that homosexuality is part of who he or she is, that God accepts this and there is no sin involved.

Homosexuals of today not only refuse to repent, but attack anyone claiming they do anything wrong. Without repentance there is no salvation.

As it relates to this thread, I would reiterate that the descriptions provided in the verses quoted by Al show conditions or actions within society that are mostly ongoing, and occur in many societies from time to time, or in some cases, almost constantly.

History is a merciless teacher of the ignorant that refuse to learn. But paul sounds like he was watching CBS or the Bravo channel and wrote Romans the first chapter.

These could be taken as support that the Bible (accurately or not, you can use your judgment) describes current conditions because these conditions are an inherent part of the ongoing human condition.

Accurately or not (!) ? Paul is dead on. It is one of the texts that made me realize that the Bible is no myth. Ongoing human condition or not the behavior described of the sexually perverted and all of those that cheer it on, is too accurate to miss for anyone of any politically correct persuasion. Girls Gone Wild? Super-Porno worldwide? Paul was seeing from an eternal vantage point. That is why Romans is literally hated by sexual deviants. Like the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun.

There is no religious texts that even come close to the Bible in describing in detail current events.