Introducing myself

[veeman]

I have been debating a "Jesus as a personal savior" on the one-on-one forum at Christianforums.net and my adversary has been shy of late. Prior to that I was a participant in multiparty debate on Christianforums.com's "Fundamentalist" forum until the moderators stopped us. The more recent one-on-one has been a fantastic experience. The competitive stimulus to learn apologetics has been intense. Desiring more practice, I am dipping my toe here. I am a born-again Christian. I currently attend a Presbyterian church.

[veeman]

would I be correct in assuming your idea of 'personal saviour' is something apart from the self?

Yes. I'm a Christian. My savior is Christ.

[bernee51]

would I be correct in assuming your idea of 'personal saviour' is something apart from the self?

Yes. I'm a Christian. My savior is Christ.

is Christ the only possible saviour?

[veeman]

is Christ the only possible saviour?

Depends what you're talking of being saved from. You want to debate or just play cute?

[veeman]

You want to debate or just play cute?

Woof, sorry. That was a bit rough. I'm used to being able to edit after posting. You seem to be feeling out what sort of adversary I am. You can get a taste of what I do at

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... a&start=15[/url]

[Cathar1950]

is Christ the only possible saviour?

Depends what you're talking of being saved from. You want to debate or just play cute?

Which should bring us back to , saved from what?
What is there to debate? How do you debate a personal saviour? What do you even mean by personal? How does Jesus save you and what is the difference between "personal" saviour and some other kind of saviour?

[bernee51]

You want to debate or just play cute?

Woof, sorry. That was a bit rough.

No offence taken...

I'm used to being able to edit after posting.

As long as it is done within two hours you can edit your posts on this forum

You seem to be feeling out what sort of adversary I am. You can get a taste of what I do at

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... a&start=15[/url]

No - not checking out your 'adversarialness' - just looking for a little clarity to see what you might mean by the terms you are using. i.e. what exactly do you mean by personal and from what is the believer being saved.

Seeing you made the original statement..."Jesus as a personal saviour", specifically YOUR personal saviour, and appear to be claiming the positive, i.e a personal saviour is necessary - why don't you start a topic and put your case.

[veeman]

just looking for a little clarity to see what you might mean by the terms you are using. i.e. what exactly do you mean by personal and from what is the believer being saved.

Right. Let's jettison "personal", which is valid but unnecessary to my purpose. Evangelical Christians use it to mean (as I understand it) that salvation is a very powerful event and subsequent state of being in a believer's individual life. My current opponent in another forum titled his thread with it I think to patronise Christians.

I propose a debate in which my position is that the Cross, defined as the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus, is necessary to save individuals from hell and from bondage to sin, where hell is defined as a place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) and sin is defined as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18).

I think you may understand that explaining sin and hell with clarity and precision to people alien to the Christian worldview as set out in the Bible may take considerable space and effort, and will likely comprise a good deal of my substantive argument. I reserve the right, therefore, to supplement the above definitions as I go since the principles underlying them are both intellectually somewhat complex and controversial in mainstream Western culture.

BTW I see that at least some debates on this forum have definite endpoints set by moderators. Is there a limit on the number of posts in a HTH thread? Or the number of words/characters in a post?

[bernee51]

just looking for a little clarity to see what you might mean by the terms you are using. i.e. what exactly do you mean by personal and from what is the believer being saved.

Right. Let's jettison "personal", which is valid but unnecessary. Evangelical Christians use it to mean (as I understand it) that salvation is a very powerful event and subsequent state of being in a believer's individual life. My current opponent in another forum titled our thread with it I think to patronise Christians.

I propose a debate in which my position is that the Cross, defined as the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus, is necessary to save individuals from hell and from bondage to sin, where hell is defined as a place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) and sin is defined as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18).

I think you may understand that explaining sin and hell with clarity and precision to people alien to the Christian worldview as set out in the Bible will take considerable space and effort, and will actually comprise a good deal of my substantive argument. I reserve the right, therefore, to supplement the above definitions as I go since the principles underlying them are both intellectually somewhat complex and controversial in mainstream Western culture.

BTW I see that at least some debates on this forum have definite endpoints set by moderators. Is there a limit on the number of posts in a HTH thread? Or the number of words/characters in a post?

I do not beleive I am 'alien to the christian worldview(s)' having been raised as a christian in a 'christian' country and spent many many hours in discussion with christians.

Not sure if I am the right person to be debating with - perhaps one of the other christians who contribute to this forum but may hold a different view to yours on these matters.

The reason I say this is because:

1) I do not hold the bible to be any more significant or reflect a global reality than any other of the myriad sacred scriptures. i.e Its tales of the cross, hell and sin are just that, tales.

2) hell and sin are concepts devised by those who believe a particular god concept is something more than a concept i.e reflect an objective, and global, reality.

3) I hold that we are biological creatures who have evolved a specific level of consciousness that allows self reflectivity - not only do we know but know that we know. IOW all our thoughts, ideas, beliefs etc are, a mental concept - a construct.

This includes your god and the other concepts surrounding it - i.e. salvation saviours, sin etc.

If you beleive there is evidence to the contrary that can be presented perhaps we can consider debating that.

[veeman]

1) I do not hold the bible to be any more significant or reflect a global reality than any other of the myriad sacred scriptures. i.e Its tales of the cross, hell and sin are just that, tales.

2) hell and sin are concepts devised by those who believe a particular god concept is something more than a concept i.e reflect an objective, and global, reality.

3) I hold that we are biological creatures who have evolved a specific level of consciousness that allows self reflectivity - not only do we know but know that we know. IOW all our thoughts, ideas, beliefs etc are, a mental concept - a construct.

I'm OK with debating these points. What you've given just now, it seems to me, is a standard argument against a need for a Savior from sin and hell, namely Savior, sin and hell are outdated concepts. I sense my topic just doesn't grab you. Let's try another:

Proposed, that God can be both loving and at the same time condemn to hell people who do not believe in Him regardless of their actions.

Proposed, that an omnipotent and good God created a world which is and has long been filled with hatred, disease and suffering.

[bernee51]

1) I do not hold the bible to be any more significant or reflect a global reality than any other of the myriad sacred scriptures. i.e Its tales of the cross, hell and sin are just that, tales.

2) hell and sin are concepts devised by those who believe a particular god concept is something more than a concept i.e reflect an objective, and global, reality.

3) I hold that we are biological creatures who have evolved a specific level of consciousness that allows self reflectivity - not only do we know but know that we know. IOW all our thoughts, ideas, beliefs etc are, a mental concept - a construct.

I'm OK with debating these points. What you've given just now, it seems to me, is a standard argument against a need for a Savior from sin and hell, namely Savior, sin and hell are outdated concepts.

I don't consider them out dated concepts - for some they are very real and do exactly what such concepts and beliefs are designed to do - provide meaning and legitimacy to the believers in the face of the 'slings and arrows of outrageous fortune'.

That said, I readily accept that, with reference to you avowed saviour, you will write what you believe and believe what you write - just as the writers of the gospels wrote what they believed and believed what they wrote.

If you act as if these concepts reflect reality then, for all intents and purposes they are, for you, reality.

I sense my topic just doesn't grab you. Let's try another:

Proposed, that God can be both loving and at the same time condemn to hell people who do not believe in Him regardless of their actions.

While I have difficulty understanding how any being can claim to be loving (love being unconditional) yet condemn those he 'loves' to suffering for not fulfilling some specified demand - I am very aware of the hermenuetic gymanastics undertaken by believers in order to rationalise this dilemma.

The point, for me, is moot, however, as I know of no need or reason for, nor evidence of, any such god.

Proposed, that an omnipotent and good God created a world which is and has long been filled with hatred, disease and suffering.

What is of greater interest to me is the CAUSE of this apparent suffering?