What is wrong with abortion?

[arunangelo]

What is wrong with abortion?

Those who exercise true love respect all human beings irrespective of their appearance or size. They, therefore, recognize the humanity of a one cell stage human being by recognizing that it is an independent life form with human genes; and has a human life force within it that initiates, directs and sustains a process to take that person through successive stages of development (over many years) to transform that person from a single cell individual to a fully grown human being with 10 trillion cells, multiple complex systems and a brain with a memory capacity equal to 20,000 computers. They, therefore see destruction of human beings in the embryonic and fetal stage as murder. They also see such an act as gross violation of human rights because it denies the victim from reaching his/her full human potential.

[T-mash]

Yes debatable. The Bible is a work of many different authors and subjects, so there is no a priori reason why the cosmology assumed by its various writers should be more than not consistent. So, there is scripture to indicate that the ancients knew the earth was round. However most of that is beside the point. I have never claimed the bible is a science book its not. God cared little about if the bible was accurate in science. The main reason for the bible to exist is as a manual of how to save your soul.

Yes the bible is a work of fiction written by men. I know. I'm not the one trying to use a logically incorrect book to support modern day issues here. God didn't care if the science in his holy book was accurate? So you are suggesting that god is a fiction writer and the bible should be placed under "Fiction"?

I don't eat most meat but what does that have to do with abortion? If you are going to say what I think you are you can rationalize anything, its a hallmark of those that think abortion is nothing to worry about.

Meat had nothing to do with it. I placed it there deliberately. The examples I gave were meat, sex and masturbation. Sex and masturbation directly relate to the development of life, but instead of trying to argue against it you prefer picking something that is weaker and not part of the subject. You are deliberately picking and choosing parts of what I say in order to support your weak arguments. As soon as I typed that down I already knew you would never comment on how masturbation and sex itself is just as much manslaughter as abortion is. I just add stuff like that to see what it is I am dealing with. Now I know

An entity that your indoctrination has blinded into not seeing. I see God every day. BTW, even if God did not exist murder is murder and killing is just that, its all repugnant, as is abortion.

So now you are not only suggesting that god did not like mentioning science, but now you are also suggesting that the search of human beings for knowledge blinds you? You see god every day? In your toast as well? Right...

No, I think we should leave those decisions in the hands of God.

And I think your God is an imaginary being made up by dessert folks 3000 years ago because they were to uneducated to understand the world around them.

To think of an unborn human has less right to life than a insect!

Since when do insects have a "right to life"? Can we go to jail for insecticide? Also why should an unborn something have more right to live than an insect? Why would an unborn still developing seed have more right to live than a being that already is alive? Your logic is faulty.

Its sickening and that the only way I can put it.

What would be sickening to me is basing morality on people that see imaginary beings on a daily basis.

First aborting the unborn whats next voluntary then involuntary euthanasia? Whats next? Culling the population to improve the race, to rid us of the mentally ill the obese etc? Whats next? Killing off the undesirables? We have already seen those horrors so they can happen eh?

Yes. First we allow gay marriage and then a man can get married by himself and then a man can marry insects and then a marriage gets abolished and then the planet explodes! We should not allow gay marriage, look at all those things that come from it! This is logic of a 5 year old. Refrain from using it.

I see what mankind can do when left to his own devices, no thanks. I see what the world could be if we had the discipline and the self restraint to obey the teachings of Jesus or even the Buddha. Man and science has a horrific track record vs the immutable morals of natural law.

It is sad that you cannot trust humanity, since we are what you have to live with. As the old dutch saying goes: "Zoals de waard is vertrouwt hij zijn gasten". Like the host is he trust his guests.

Well my studies and schooling were first in science (major) then theology so I forgive you not knowing about all of the bibles references of the subject. Here is a link that is designed for beginners ; http://www.geocentricity.com/astronomy_ ... teach.html

You don't school in science, what are you talking about.

I would rather we remained in a hunter gather society living in harmony with the world rather than creating the horrors of modern world.

He said behind his computer while enjoying modern medicine.

However why don't you tell a starving mother in Africa why technology is so wonderful? Or a eight year old sweat shop (slave) that will die before she is 50 how great our brave new world is?

Fine. I can tell them that while her country is behind in technology and medicine, technology and medicine becomes cheaper and better. As we try to build up our own societies we also look out for others and we are trying to get them running too. I can tell her that there is a big chance her children's children will live in a much better world than she could ever imagine due to scientific research. Now why don't you go there too and tell her it's a good thing she is starving and she should ignore any help offered to her by those pesky scientists, because it's much better if their country stays the way it is now.

You are very naive! It defines your reality, how much more do you need? Your entire paradigm is based on what science tells you is true. Maybe you haven't thought about that yet.

Science defines reality. Oh noes! We should have left reality undefined!

Yes in your little world science is great. Again its not worth the pain and suffering its caused. No I would much rather go back to not the middle ages but all the way back to when there were hundred of thousands of humans on earth and we lived in harmony with it.

And in your little mind you fail to still understand what science is. Human Knowledge. YES human knowledge is great! You disagree? Go back and live in the jungle and stop bugging us with your primitive morals.

At age 20 I cant fault you in this. Maybe as you learn and grow you may be able to see that your completely indoctrinated into a paradigm created by the logical positivists. You are a product of that age, that is why you feel as strongly as you do about religion and God, your indoctrination has taught you its bad

Ahh the good old age-card.

Religion will always been here. Why is that? its because God is eternal. No God was here before science and it will be here long after science and the human race is extinct. Religion created science. However you still miss the point that I have no problems with science, I have a problem with people defining their reality with it.

The Egyptian gods are eternal? The Egyptian gods created science? lol.

[Scotracer]

Yes debatable. The Bible is a work of many different authors and subjects, so there is no a priori reason why the cosmology assumed by its various writers should be more than not consistent. So, there is scripture to indicate that the ancients knew the earth was round. However most of that is beside the point. I have never claimed the bible is a science book its not. God cared little about if the bible was accurate in science. The main reason for the bible to exist is as a manual of how to save your soul.

Folks knew the earth was round long before the bible...

http://octopus.gma.org/space1/nav_map.html

An entity that your indoctrination has blinded into not seeing. I see God every day. BTW, even if God did not exist murder is murder and killing is just that, its all repugnant, as is abortion.

This along with the quote below are blatant insults.

At age 20 I cant fault you in this. Maybe as you learn and grow you may be able to see that your completely indoctrinated into a paradigm created by the logical positivists. You are a product of that age, that is why you feel as strongly as you do about religion and God, your indoctrination has taught you its bad

Yes, all of us in our 20s have been indoctrinated into the belief that positive claims require positive evidence. What an awful tragedy...

No, I think we should leave those decisions in the hands of God.

This just concretes the idea that people use religion so they don't have to think.

Its sickening and that the only way I can put it.

Abortion is not an easy subject and there is no easy answer. The issue is that having sex with contraception stops a baby from being born...but so does not having sex at all! There is no win-win here. Life is unfair - get used to it.

First aborting the unborn whats next voluntary then involuntary euthanasia? Whats next? Culling the population to improve the race, to rid us of the mentally ill the obese etc? Whats next? Killing off the undesirables? We have already seen those horrors so they can happen eh?

Reductio ad absurdum

I see what mankind can do when left to his own devices, no thanks. I see what the world could be if we had the discipline and the self restraint to obey the teachings of Jesus or even the Buddha. Man and science has a horrific track record vs the immutable morals of natural law.

Right so you want to live in a perfect world. Who doesn't? It still doesn't mean you'll get one...

Well my studies and schooling were first in science (major) then theology so I forgive you not knowing about all of the bibles references of the subject. Here is a link that is designed for beginners ; http://www.geocentricity.com/astronomy_ ... teach.html

Out of interest, which science was it?

I would rather we remained in a hunter gather society living in harmony with the world rather than creating the horrors of modern world.

I've heard this argument before. In reality, no you don't - very real risk of famine, dying of drought or a freeze, predators biting at your ankles...wow it goes on. If you think abortion is bad wait until you see the infant mortality rates in undeveloped countries...

However why don't you tell a starving mother in Africa why technology is so wonderful? Or a eight year old sweat shop (slave) that will die before she is 50 how great our brave new world is?

Well that's just cruel - telling someone in abject poverty that you on the other side of the wall live so well. But hey you Christians are going about Africa telling them folks that contraception is evil and they're all getting aids. I guess anything goes.

You are very naive! It defines your reality, how much more do you need? Your entire paradigm is based on what science tells you is true. Maybe you haven't thought about that yet.

Science doesn't define it, science shows us what it actually is. Science works.

Yes in your little world science is great. Again its not worth the pain and suffering its caused. No I would much rather go back to not the middle ages but all the way back to when there were hundred of thousands of humans on earth and we lived in harmony with it.

What about the pain and suffering it has stopped? Haber process, infant mortality rates in industrialised nations, cures for a variety of diseases that would have killed you 100 years ago and countless other things that have allowed you to instead of spending every waking moment ensuring you don't die come on here and debate how it's all evil. The most bitter hubris...

And what "harmony"? About 150,000 years ago our species almost died out in Africa with massive droughts and famine. We were on the brink of extinction. Ah right because we didn't interfere with our evil science it was just perfect...

Religion will always been here. Why is that? its because God is eternal. No God was here before science and it will be here long after science and the human race is extinct. Religion created science. However you still miss the point that I have no problems with science, I have a problem with people defining their reality with it.

Your unproven statements about god or gods don't help anyone in this discussion. Until you can prove your god exists, don't bring him/her/it up - it's pointless.

Science has its origins in Greece and Rome.

[Pastor4Jesus]

We haven't had god coming to explain the universe to us.

No he gave us a mind to do that. The bible is a book of many subjects, none more important than saving your soul.

We have a few books that claim to be the word of god but they cannot be differentiated from general mythology.

Of course I take issue with that. Religion does have related mythological components. However any high school student could tell you the differences between mythology and religion. If you are not making a insult maybe you should at least google mythology/religion or visit your local library before making such a obviously untrue statement. So if you really believe that statement its an indication of your limits of education in those matters.

If he's trying to explain the workings of the universe to us, he needs to try better. None of these Holy Books actually tell us anything about reality.

When I speak about reality it encompasses more than one thing. If you are a strong atheist that is your reality and it effects your life in many ways. I as a theist see the universe and reality much differently. I know we need science. I also know we don't need science as an authority or last word on everything. Its when science oversteps its authority that I become irate.

Now it could be because they are basically philosophies written by primitive man or perhaps god just doesn't want us knowing how to combat disease.

No its this; For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? The bible provided rudimentary advice for health care, but the bible couldn't possibly provide advice for even a number of diseases that hadn't even emerged yet. This world and universe has to run on natural law to produce what we need to become like God, as Einstein said that he did not question if God created the Universe, he just wondered if he has a choice to create it as he did. (not the exact words). I agree! The world runs on natural law because it wouldn't work any other way.

I think the universe is the fire that tempers and cleanses the steel of our immortality. The impurities are hammered out by our free will decisions and each of OUR decisions changes us. I feel some atheists and unbelievers are devoid of grit. They cry and whine wanting any god worth his salt to make us perfect from the go. Sorry my friends you have to work at it to get anything good in this world. The spiritual world takes ten times as much work.

Science shows how reality is. Anyone can look at the facts and the data and will come up with the same conclusion. That is the most objective way to look at reality.

No no no! Science gives us a guess, which often changes in a very short time of reality! Science can be used as a tool for the day. But in a hundred years that tool will be useless in many cases. I agree that science can describe how some things work but that is not describing reality its educated guess work that's bound to change. I will use science like a tool because I have to. But it does not and can not (so far even from its beginnings) describe the important things.

On a scale of correctness, science has a lot of success. Again you're implying that one can know "absolute truth". That just isn't possible for humans. Take a look at the world around you, look at your car, your computer and tell me again that science is "rarely" correct. Our world depends on the fruits of science and on that front, it's an overwhelming success..

Success? Tell that to a starving mother in Africa. Or to the survivors of Hiroshima. Science is a tool that's all. It can't or hasn't describe what makes life life. It can't say where the universe came from. It can't say we are self aware. Science is a tool. As a tool it works for the few that can afford it. If I had a choice I would rather the world go back to a hunter gather society and I am not fibbing about that. The only thing I would want to take back with me would be my knowledge of God, that would make for some interesting cave paintings, but I would most likley already be dead and with God at my age. I think the planet and we were better off. Of course if I had a magic wand I would wave it and give the gifts of science to everyone on earth if we could take the weapons of mass destruction etc out of the equation.

So, to understand the universe, we should just take everything on faith? Are you seriously proposing this as an alternative to science? Faith offers no way to self-correct and as such is instantly inferior to the scientific method.

Yes that would be ok with me. I mean the universe was created not static and eternal as our wonderful science taught us for a hundred years. Of course I have said we should use a tool if we have it. The flint knapping was the science of the day and I would use it. Where science has no business is claiming authority or attempting to remove God from the universe. It ain't gonna happen as hawking and others have spent (wasted) a lifetime finding out. Science is a tool that's all.

Inhumanity will always exist as "bad people" will always be born. The world is by no means perfect but we're going in the right direction.

You really think that don't you? I hope so for our childrens sake. If we learn to love our fellow man we may make it yet.

Oh right, the soul that has no evidential support in reality.

Of course not. None that you accept.

I've seen you reference Ray's book already. Do you seriously respect him as a "defender of the faith"? If he was on my side, I'd be wholly embarrassed.

Yes I am sure of that! You probably would be embarrassed of many truths that most of the world embraced. That's a no brainier. However if I were you I would be beyond embarrassed to believe what you (if you are a strong atheist) take as solid truth. On a scale of one to ten with one being a weak probability and ten being nearly a sure thing, strong atheism would be in the negative numbers (I wish I had an infinite key!). I have a feeling that's why the strong atheist has such a weak following, even in today's science imbued world.

The first quote should have an obvious answer: if no one believed in god, no one would talk about it but the fact that so many people do, those who don't will make a thing of it.

Why?

And on the second: yes, let's call the bible "truth" with nothing to back up such a extraordinary claim.

The evidence is all around you and in you. Its in the science that you nearly worship and place your faith. Evidence is in all life that science cant duplicate. Arrogance and pride blinds one to the truth.

P4JC

[Pastor4Jesus]

Natural law as found where? in the bible? lets take a look...
Then ten commandments:
[strike]1) do not rape
2) do not molest children
3) do not enslave other human beings
4) do not torture[/strike]
1) worship no other God before me
2) do not worship false idols
3) Honor your father and mother
4) do not murder
5) do not steal
6) do not covet
7) do not lie
8) do not commit adultery
9) do not use the lords name in vain
10) remember the sabbath day and keep it holy

Those are the important moral laws, are they?

Read the new testament and get back to me. Your ignorance of the bible is beyond swift repair and your lack of critical thinking nonexistent if you think that Jesus condoned those items you posted. If your atheist handlers have corrupted your thinking to that extent that you think Jesus approved to all those atrocities and you truly are asking me I can show scripture where you have been lied to. I do tire of rebutting posts such as this one in you are simply trying to discredit Christianity.

A example of your lies ; Rape….22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

P4JC

[Jayhawker Soule]

If your atheist handlers have corrupted your ...

Oh my! Isn't that more than a little silly? And just who has corrupted your attitude?

[FinalEnigma]

Natural law as found where? in the bible? lets take a look...
Then ten commandments:
[strike]1) do not rape
2) do not molest children
3) do not enslave other human beings
4) do not torture[/strike]
1) worship no other God before me
2) do not worship false idols
3) Honor your father and mother
4) do not murder
5) do not steal
6) do not covet
7) do not lie
8) do not commit adultery
9) do not use the lords name in vain
10) remember the sabbath day and keep it holy

Those are the important moral laws, are they?

Read the new testament and get back to me. Your ignorance of the bible is beyond swift repair and your lack of critical thinking nonexistent

I thank you for the great compliments about my nonexistent lack of critical thinking and such, but I must unfortunately cop to having more knowledge of the bible than you think.

if you think that Jesus condoned those items you posted.

so the bible is the new testament?
and these random words in, I guess the book of Rape? 22:25, are more important than the big ten commandments that Christians always laud as the moral rules and the basis of a stable society?
the fact that there is so much more emphasis on the ten commandments implies that it is more important.
I didn't say God or Jesus condoned rape/torture/etc. just that they were apparently considered less important than honoring your parents.

If your atheist handlers have corrupted your thinking

Can we skip these types of arguments, please? I would have been offended by your ad hominems had I not been amused that you accidentally gave me a great compliment.

A example of your lies ; Rape….22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

Now here I'd like some evidence that I lied. I make it a rule, inasmuch as I can, not to lie(though I admit, I do tell the occasional lie to some people to avoid hurting their feelings, just not to anybody I care about), and do not appreciate the slander. So, please either show that
1) what I listed were not the ten commandments
2) or that the ten commandments are not considered the important moral laws of the bible(which I actually phrased as a question anyway)

or just retract the 'lie' comment.

also, why does it specifically say a betrothed damsel? that implies it's okay to rape damsels who aren't betrothed(it may not mean that, I can't say for sure. it might help to have context, but I don't know where to find passage 22:25 in the book of Rape. But it most certainly does imply that without context, so that wasn't a lie either).

[handofnergal]

Read the new testament and get back to me. Your ignorance of the bible is beyond swift repair and your lack of critical thinking nonexistent if you think that Jesus condoned those items you posted.

But mister Pastor, Jesus said that he would not change the laws, not even a jot or tiddle. It seems like Jesus was okay with all 600 of the old laws, he just added on new ones, although admittedly he did stress some over others.

If your atheist handlers

we have no handlers sir, that is condescending

have corrupted your thinking to that extent that you think Jesus approved to all those atrocities

he did not specifically endorse them, but if he is such a great moral teacher he should really have addressed some of them - slavery for example is a very big deal

and you truly are asking me I can show scripture where you have been lied to. I do tire of rebutting posts such as this one in you are simply trying to discredit Christianity.

Judaism as well, but we are not perverting the teachings at all, we are merely reading it as it's written for the sake of Thor. The OT says that if you get caught raping a woman you can pay the father 50 shekels and make her your wife.(Deuteronomy 22: 28)

I'll drop the whole Bible thing because it's off topic, I just wanted to defend my brother because I feel he was unjust;y attacked. As a Christian I'm sure you understand the need for keeping my brother. Look even though I dont agree with you I can still respect you and admire your honesty, let's just call a spade a spade every once in a while.

[Goat]

Natural law as found where? in the bible? lets take a look...
Then ten commandments:
[strike]1) do not rape
2) do not molest children
3) do not enslave other human beings
4) do not torture[/strike]
1) worship no other God before me
2) do not worship false idols
3) Honor your father and mother
4) do not murder
5) do not steal
6) do not covet
7) do not lie
8) do not commit adultery
9) do not use the lords name in vain
10) remember the sabbath day and keep it holy

Those are the important moral laws, are they?

Read the new testament and get back to me. Your ignorance of the bible is beyond swift repair and your lack of critical thinking nonexistent if you think that Jesus condoned those items you posted. If your atheist handlers have corrupted your thinking to that extent that you think Jesus approved to all those atrocities and you truly are asking me I can show scripture where you have been lied to. I do tire of rebutting posts such as this one in you are simply trying to discredit Christianity.

A example of your lies ; Rape….22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

P4JC

Is it just a lie? How about looking at the few later sentences

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

or how about Duet 22:23-24

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.



Mind you, this was not practiced for centuries before the second temple but.. it seems in the very early days of Judaism, the culture was such that the reason rape was bad was because it was violating another mans property.

[Scotracer]

We haven't had god coming to explain the universe to us.

No he gave us a mind to do that. The bible is a book of many subjects, none more important than saving your soul.

Supporting an unsupported assertion with another unsupported assertion doesn't exactly help your position.

We have a few books that claim to be the word of god but they cannot be differentiated from general mythology.

Of course I take issue with that. Religion does have related mythological components. However any high school student could tell you the differences between mythology and religion. If you are not making a insult maybe you should at least google mythology/religion or visit your local library before making such a obviously untrue statement. So if you really believe that statement its an indication of your limits of education in those matters.

No, actually most people don't know the difference because they are the same thing. They are only differentiated by the subjective opinion of humans in a given period of time.

Just look at Christian Mythology.

If he's trying to explain the workings of the universe to us, he needs to try better. None of these Holy Books actually tell us anything about reality.

When I speak about reality it encompasses more than one thing. If you are a strong atheist that is your reality and it effects your life in many ways. I as a theist see the universe and reality much differently. I know we need science. I also know we don't need science as an authority or last word on everything. Its when science oversteps its authority that I become irate.

I am an agnostic atheist, actually.

How can knowledge overstep its authority? And by whose opinion do we define where that limit is? Science is what we know about reality. Y'know, that place we live in. Just because this knowledge goes against your sacred documents doesn't mean its overstepped any authority...it just means your sacred documents are wrong. And verifiably at that.

Now it could be because they are basically philosophies written by primitive man or perhaps god just doesn't want us knowing how to combat disease.

No its this; For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? The bible provided rudimentary advice for health care, but the bible couldn't possibly provide advice for even a number of diseases that hadn't even emerged yet. This world and universe has to run on natural law to produce what we need to become like God, as Einstein said that he did not question if God created the Universe, he just wondered if he has a choice to create it as he did. (not the exact words). I agree! The world runs on natural law because it wouldn't work any other way.

I think the universe is the fire that tempers and cleanses the steel of our immortality. The impurities are hammered out by our free will decisions and each of OUR decisions changes us. I feel some atheists and unbelievers are devoid of grit. They cry and whine wanting any god worth his salt to make us perfect from the go. Sorry my friends you have to work at it to get anything good in this world. The spiritual world takes ten times as much work.

What about the wrong advice the bible gives with regards to Leprosy? The whole birds and blood shenanigans? Was god just joking with that one?

What you think is irrelevant - it is why you think that which counts. The heart of science. And what are you talking about a "lack of grit"? We aren't the ones who think, and cling to, the belief that they'll live forever. Pro tip: living forever is not something to look forward to.

Science shows how reality is. Anyone can look at the facts and the data and will come up with the same conclusion. That is the most objective way to look at reality.

No no no! Science gives us a guess, which often changes in a very short time of reality! Science can be used as a tool for the day. But in a hundred years that tool will be useless in many cases. I agree that science can describe how some things work but that is not describing reality its educated guess work that's bound to change. I will use science like a tool because I have to. But it does not and can not (so far even from its beginnings) describe the important things.

Yes what a silly idea - science improves our knowledge over time. We should expect "truth" from day one.

On a scale of correctness, science has a lot of success. Again you're implying that one can know "absolute truth". That just isn't possible for humans. Take a look at the world around you, look at your car, your computer and tell me again that science is "rarely" correct. Our world depends on the fruits of science and on that front, it's an overwhelming success..

Success? Tell that to a starving mother in Africa. Or to the survivors of Hiroshima. Science is a tool that's all. It can't or hasn't describe what makes life life. It can't say where the universe came from. It can't say we are self aware. Science is a tool. As a tool it works for the few that can afford it. If I had a choice I would rather the world go back to a hunter gather society and I am not fibbing about that. The only thing I would want to take back with me would be my knowledge of God, that would make for some interesting cave paintings, but I would most likley already be dead and with God at my age. I think the planet and we were better off. Of course if I had a magic wand I would wave it and give the gifts of science to everyone on earth if we could take the weapons of mass destruction etc out of the equation.

You've already used that argument, Pastor. If your standards that you use against science are so high that for it to be a success, by any level, it has to fix every problem humanity faces then your standards are ridiculously high.

So, to understand the universe, we should just take everything on faith? Are you seriously proposing this as an alternative to science? Faith offers no way to self-correct and as such is instantly inferior to the scientific method.

Yes that would be ok with me. I mean the universe was created not static and eternal as our wonderful science taught us for a hundred years. Of course I have said we should use a tool if we have it. The flint knapping was the science of the day and I would use it. Where science has no business is claiming authority or attempting to remove God from the universe. It ain't gonna happen as hawking and others have spent (wasted) a lifetime finding out. Science is a tool that's all.

The universe was just assumed to be because we didn't have any data to actually look at it. Now we do.

Oh and the universe was not created! Everyone that participated in the Kalam thread has shown that the universe was not "created" but just came from a different form that preceded it. The first law of thermodynamics is one of the most important laws in physics, y'know.

Inhumanity will always exist as "bad people" will always be born. The world is by no means perfect but we're going in the right direction.

You really think that don't you? I hope so for our childrens sake. If we learn to love our fellow man we may make it yet.

It's called being realistic. If you think we can get to a point where no sociopaths exist then good for you but I really don't see that happening.

Oh right, the soul that has no evidential support in reality.

Of course not. None that you accept.

How many times will Theists use this "argument"?

They always have proof of some supernatural event but never give said proof because "we won't accept it". Well instead of presupposing what we will and will not accept - GIVE US THE EVIDENCE. If you have "proof" it should be accepted by any rational person. And I am that.

I've seen you reference Ray's book already. Do you seriously respect him as a "defender of the faith"? If he was on my side, I'd be wholly embarrassed.

Yes I am sure of that! You probably would be embarrassed of many truths that most of the world embraced. That's a no brainier. However if I were you I would be beyond embarrassed to believe what you (if you are a strong atheist) take as solid truth. On a scale of one to ten with one being a weak probability and ten being nearly a sure thing, strong atheism would be in the negative numbers (I wish I had an infinite key!). I have a feeling that's why the strong atheist has such a weak following, even in today's science imbued world.

Strong atheism is just as irrational as strong theism.

The first quote should have an obvious answer: if no one believed in god, no one would talk about it but the fact that so many people do, those who don't will make a thing of it.

Why?

Because we see it as stupid, detrimental to human progress and the fact it impedes our rights (such as atheists having no hope of getting voted into office in the US, and it being against the constitution in some states) means we have to fight against it with the only way that will work: make people think. Show them the ridiculous nature of what they believe or have just accepted as "truth" and we may one day see a rational society.

And on the second: yes, let's call the bible "truth" with nothing to back up such a extraordinary claim.

The evidence is all around you and in you. Its in the science that you nearly worship and place your faith. Evidence is in all life that science cant duplicate. Arrogance and pride blinds one to the truth.

P4JC

I was waiting on your saying "trees" or something. We know how most of what surrounds us formed. We have biology, geology, physics, chemistry that has built most of our world today. So unless you want to call us god then you outta look for more evidence.

A couple more insults. Thanks for those - I'll add them to the list of typical theist responses.

I don't worship "science". Worshipping knowledge makes no sense but whatever.

Just because science hasn't so far been able to replicate life (despite our fully decoding the genomes of animals, genetic engineering and other great developments) doesn't mean it isn't possible. Argument from ignorance, I reckon.

[Pastor4Jesus]

Yes the bible is a work of fiction written by men. I know.

How do you 'Know'? How do you know all history is not in the same category? The bible has some demonstrable fact. It mentioned cities that we did not know existed until modern archeology prove it out *. Is that lack of knowledge on your part? Its stories of everyday life is that fiction? Its letters sent out to the church in Rome, is that fiction? Ignorance isn't wrong, but denying facts to attempt to prove a point detracts from your credibility Ms Mash.

I'm not the one trying to use a logically incorrect book to support modern day issues here.

A logically incorrect book? What pray tell does that mean? It is a good example of Ad Hoc maybe?

God didn't care if the science in his holy book was accurate? So you are suggesting that god is a fiction writer and the bible should be placed under "Fiction"?

No what he wrote was a practical book on how to save your soul. Mentioning a piece of unrelated verse taken out of context proves nothing except that its a new twist on quote mining, and its a poor one at that.

Meat had nothing to do with it. I placed it there deliberately. The examples I gave were meat, sex and masturbation. Sex and masturbation directly relate to the development of life, but instead of trying to argue against it you prefer picking something that is weaker and not part of the subject. You are deliberately picking and choosing parts of what I say in order to support your weak arguments. As soon as I typed that down I already knew you would never comment on how masturbation and sex itself is just as much manslaughter as abortion is. I just add stuff like that to see what it is I am dealing with. Now I know

Ha not so fast how was I supposed to translate that mess? If a sperm has a soul that I am guilty. I am, but the bible, the old testament at least seems to frown on it. So if the bible forbids me 'fully realizing my potential' ie spanking the monkey, etc I have some explaining to do. However I feel comfortable when I choke the rabbit and will happily explain it to God. you are just demonstrating you know next to nothing about what you so hate.

*Genesis 38:9 (King James Version)
9And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

Woody Allen: "Don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone that I love."

God gave us a mind and a brain and expected us to use common sense Ms Mash. You in your attempt to discredit everything christian expose your agenda of being a Evangelical atheist. What I preach is to read the bible if you are curious then make up your own mind what its about. The only time you should trust an authority is if you are having a difficult time understanding a passage. What is in your heart will determine your salvation not what some fool preacher tells you is true.

So now you are not only suggesting that god did not like mentioning science, but now you are also suggesting that the search of human beings for knowledge blinds you? You see god every day? In your toast as well? Right...

No I was addressing your comment. God created science he is science. He wants us to be curious and to learn. However if you willfully dismiss god as mythical you will never be able to learn anything be it math or the bible. lastly I had the respect not to use terms of endearment at your request. Your hateful taunts are indicative of your compromised personality (the need to hate) and will be reported if you keep it up.

And I think your God is an imaginary being made up by dessert folks 3000 years ago because they were to uneducated to understand the world around them.

What are dessert folks people that live on a candy bar?

Since when do insects have a "right to life"? Can we go to jail for insecticide? Also why should an unborn something have more right to live than an insect? Why would an unborn still developing seed have more right to live than a being that already is alive? Your logic is faulty.

That's what I said it seems that you would as easily kill an insect as abort a unborn.

What would be sickening to me is basing morality on people that see imaginary beings on a daily basis.

Well get used to it because I and a few other million aren't going away, it seems you will be ill for sometime and I will say that I hope you have a change of heart, if that is possible.

Yes. First we allow gay marriage and then a man can get married by himself and then a man can marry insects and then a marriage gets abolished and then the planet explodes! We should not allow gay marriage, look at all those things that come from it! This is logic of a 5 year old. Refrain from using it.

Show me where Jesus spoke against homosexuality your education seems to that of a five year old. Sorry I cant refrain from truth. You don't even know the basics of what you think you hate so much. Here is the logic for you ; how can you hate something that you are so ignorant about?

It is sad that you cannot trust humanity, since we are what you have to live with. As the old dutch saying goes: "Zoals de waard is vertrouwt hij zijn gasten". Like the host is he trust his guests.

You somehow got it wrong again. I said man left to his own devices. As the old Islamic sayin' (in your lanuange forgive me if its not very accurate) goes
MAN HAR inte LÄMNAT TILL HANS EGNA ENHETER ATT LEVA MEN HAN ÖNSKAR

Lämnade utan ett stöd på som att bygga hans misguidance och ateism som representanten av misguided avslöjar hans verkliga avsikt, att säga:

Den verkliga naturen av ateism

’Sedan jag söker nöjet och lycka av det världe livet, avancemang i civilisation och fulländning av konst i förnekande av Gud, inte heeding Hereafter, kärlek av världen, väsen befriar att leva men jag önskar och själv-bestämdhet, jag har dragit de de flesta människor på denna stig genom hjälpen av satan, och fortsätter att göra så’.

Satan influences all of us, the Christian has defenses and the unbeliever has none.

You don't school in science, what are you talking about.

Maybe not from where you are from, but my electives were all science related. You just misunderstood me.

He said behind his computer while enjoying modern medicine.

Yes addicts use heroin too.

Fine. I can tell them that while her country is behind in technology and medicine, technology and medicine becomes cheaper and better

No she will be dead by then.

As we try to build up our own societies we also look out for others and we are trying to get them running too.

Uh huh. Tell that to the poor people in Haiti. Oh you will find many christian missions there and in Africa.

I can tell her that there is a big chance her children's children will live in a much better world than she could ever imagine due to scientific research.

I can tell her now there is a christian mission just down the road...

Now why don't you go there too and tell her it's a good thing she is starving and she should ignore any help offered to her by those pesky scientists, because it's much better if their country stays the way it is now.

I have two christian non profit missions that exist to help the poor. That's what I do. I sold a profitable testing lab (we tested urine and blood etc) to start the missions. So maybe if I can get some work outside the USA I will be able go give her a bag of flour face to face, maybe you would like to volunteer as well? BTW before anyone expresses disbelieving all my mission and church activities are transparent to anyone donating. In other words if you don't believe me I will send you a complete financial abstract after a donation and small postage.

Science defines reality. Oh noes! We should have left reality undefined!

Ha ha yes well some kids now days seem to think games define reality. Your a product of your environment but with some thinking and critical assessment you can rise above the mundane black and white world of logical positivism and elevate your spirit to a level not dreamed of by secular pundits. When I dabbled in eastern mysticism and learned to mediate this highest state of mediation was called being one with God. Base your reality on truth, not on the always moving sometimes fraudulent, always falsifiable science. Use science for what God intended a tool.

.And in your little mind you fail to still understand what science is. Human Knowledge. YES human knowledge is great! You disagree? Go back and live in the jungle and stop bugging us with your primitive morals.

You are very close to a report. By saying my little mind that makes it personal. As for your asinine comment, you and your beliefs are in the extreme minority. So I suggest that you keep your opinions to yourself and go on with your life.

Ahh the good old age-card.

As I said you lack experience, no insult there.

The Egyptian gods are eternal? The Egyptian gods created science? lol.

The creator is the only God. The Egyptians may of called God Ra or whatever the Greeks called him Zeus, the native Americans called him the sky god or whatever, I call him the Hebrew God. It doesn't matter its more logical to assume that God exists rather than the indefensible sad paradigm of the hard atheists. Why do you think there is something rather than nothing Ms Mash? Remember God loves you so I don't have to! (but I am trying because I see through your ruse)

P4JC


* The Bible mentions a nation called the Hittites. It suggested that they lived 4,000 years ago. (Genesis 23:10). Archaeologists and historians, for hundreds of years said: ‘The Bible is wrong. There is no evidence of there ever being a people called the Hittites. No buried cities, no documents mentioning them, nothing existed. Finally early this century something strange was found.
Still, the experts didn’t believe that the Bible could be right.

Then it was time to serve the secular so called experts a plate of crow ;

The archaeologist found the Hittites civilization, confirming the story in our bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites