What is wrong with abortion?

[arunangelo]

What is wrong with abortion?

Those who exercise true love respect all human beings irrespective of their appearance or size. They, therefore, recognize the humanity of a one cell stage human being by recognizing that it is an independent life form with human genes; and has a human life force within it that initiates, directs and sustains a process to take that person through successive stages of development (over many years) to transform that person from a single cell individual to a fully grown human being with 10 trillion cells, multiple complex systems and a brain with a memory capacity equal to 20,000 computers. They, therefore see destruction of human beings in the embryonic and fetal stage as murder. They also see such an act as gross violation of human rights because it denies the victim from reaching his/her full human potential.

[T-mash]

For P4J

There you go. Perfectly catered to your request.

The bible has some demonstrable fact. It mentioned cities that we did not know existed until modern archeology prove it out *. Is that lack of knowledge on your part?

The bible also mentions things that are plain wrong in modern archaeology. Like Nazareth, which never has been found to exist in the time of Jesus. Why does it surprise you that the bible got some places right though? What's the hard part about mentioning some existing town-names that were there in the time you wrote it?

A logically incorrect book? What pray tell does that mean? It is a good example of Ad Hoc maybe?

A book that has as many flaws in it as the bible, yet claimed to be written or passed down by an all-perfect being is the epitome of logically incorrect.

No what he wrote was a practical book on how to save your soul. Mentioning a piece of unrelated verse taken out of context proves nothing except that its a new twist on quote mining, and its a poor one at that.

And it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for him to keep a practical book scientifically accurate? Do practical books like computer manuals have to contain mythology and illogical claims to show us how it's done?

Ha not so fast how was I supposed to translate that mess?

It wasn't really meant as such, so I don't know what you mean with "translate". It's a type of argument I made in order to see what I am up against. You can find a persons intention in a debate and it's easier to do once you have found them.

If a sperm has a soul that I am guilty. I am, but the bible, the old testament at least seems to frown on it.

Christianity also claims that animals don't have a soul. More specifically nowadays, in order to try and get away from the idea of hell, it is suggested that atheists or non-believers do not have eternal life because their soul does not manifest. So does this mean you should, or at least should be allowed to kill of everyone who disagrees with Christianity for the lack of a soul?

Is a life without a soul not worth living? If spermcells don't have a soul they deserve to be killed? If sperm cells have a soul they deserve to live? If a soul would only become part of a human being once it's born would you be pro-abortion all of a sudden? First of there is no reason to assume anything has a soul, since it has never been found or evidenced. Do you think it's good to base our decision on abortion on the religious believes of Christianity that, even if correct, gives us an arbitrary rule that we can't even apply? Can we say it is moral to judge the lives of animals and plants based on what we "believe" has a soul?

God gave us a mind and a brain and expected us to use common sense Ms Mash. You in your attempt to discredit everything christian expose your agenda of being a Evangelical atheist.

Of course this is a claim without any form of evidence, so can you give us some historical reports of humans that received the brain from god personally? Or can you show us with verifiable evidence that God gave us this mind and brain? Evolution dictates the opposite.

God created science he is science. He wants us to be curious and to learn. However if you willfully dismiss god as mythical you will never be able to learn anything be it math or the bible. lastly I had the respect not to use terms of endearment at your request. Your hateful taunts are indicative of your compromised personality (the need to hate) and will be reported if you keep it up.

Do you know that we have had the biggest progress in humanity when we began dismissing god as a mythical being? Remember the dark ages? The period lead by the dominance of Christianity? Remember the scientists who weren't allowed to show what the world really was like because Professor Doctor God (Ph.D) did not want us to explore the world? Funny how when science has progressed god has shrunk though... funny how this book by Ir. God does not fit with the science he apparently is.

What are dessert folks people that live on a candy bar?

Don't know. What are they?

That's what I said it seems that you would as easily kill an insect as abort a unborn.

You abort unborns every time you masturbate. Do you think you killed more bugs than sperm cells? And no one would abort a foetus as easily as squashing an insect.

Well get used to it because I and a few other million aren't going away, it seems you will be ill for sometime and I will say that I hope you have a change of heart, if that is possible.

You can say that but I actually think you agree with me. Look at it this way. How would you like it if say President Obama converted to Islam and would switch his policy and his decision making based on the Quran? Would you genuinely be fine with this? Would you accept the opinion of Quran on the subject of major human issues, especially if you disagree with what is stated in the Quran? If not, would you debate with a Muslim by arguing your book is better and you win? Or would you tell him that an important decision about our human lives like this should not be made by following what some holy book says, but instead should be based on what us humans have to say? If you would do the latter, this is my viewpoint. Do you care what Quran says about abortion? I don't mean out of interest, but do you genuinely consider the Quran to have a valid authority on this subject and therefore it should be studied for it's answer on this issue? Or would you say: "I don't care what Allah says about abortion, I care what you as a human have to say about abortion without using Allah"? If so, this is my opinion.

Yes. First we allow gay marriage and then a man can get married by himself and then a man can marry insects and then a marriage gets abolished and then the planet explodes! We should not allow gay marriage, look at all those things that come from it! This is logic of a 5 year old. Refrain from using it.

Show me where Jesus spoke against homosexuality your education seems to that of a five year old. Sorry I cant refrain from truth. You don't even know the basics of what you think you hate so much. Here is the logic for you ; how can you hate something that you are so ignorant about?

I didn't say anything about Jesus talking about gay marriage. I just used an analogy to show a fallacy. You said that we should outlaw abortion because.. what's next? Killing mentally handicapped people? Killing etc etc.. thereby falsely extrapolating the consequences of abortion.

My example was for someone who is against gay marriage, who could also extrapolate it in the same way to try to claim that allowing gay marriage means the end of marriage.

I'll try to give another example to show what I mean. A town gets a new construction, a mosque. The people living in the town complain because, what's next? Now a mosque, tomorrow an entire Arabic town and before you know it America is an Islamic country! So in order to stop America from becoming an Islamic country we shouldn't allow this mosque.

This argument is just not valid, because you can extrapolate anything this way into spelling the end of the world as we know it.

You somehow got it wrong again. I said man left to his own devices. As the old Islamic sayin' (in your lanuange forgive me if its not very accurate) goes

Mankind left to his own devices is what we currently are, until demonstrated otherwise. We have been left to our own devices for the last 100,000+ years. By the way, that language is Swedish.

Maybe not from where you are from, but my electives were all science related. You just misunderstood me.

My point was that you don't study science. Maybe in the form of scientific philosophy, but you do not directly study "science".

No she will be dead by then.

Yes, and you and me might be dead by then too, but does this mean we should not care for what happens to our children's children? Don't you agree that she might find satisfaction with knowing we'd be working on quality of life for her offspring? In fact when we go there we bring vaccines and scientifically engineered food already (products of science) so what is wrong with telling her we can alleviate the pain she and those in her home-town have? What is wrong in telling her we are able to fight of most of the diseases that scare her for not only her life but also for those of her children and villagers? All of this because of science.

Uh huh. Tell that to the poor people in Haiti. Oh you will find many christian missions there and in Africa.
I can tell her now there is a christian mission just down the road...

Who have managed to get there by AIRPLANE, which is an invention from science, not god. Also what makes you think these Christians that go there do not like science? Science is also tv and internet, which has been the source for their income. All those images we can see from Africa, poor people starving etc. Those help in raising awareness more than a guy walking up to you saying: "Hey in Africa people starve, wanna donate?". This amount of wide-spread charity was not possible without science. Also one of the biggest donators of our current time is Bill Gates. Bill Gates, owner of Mircrosoft. It doesn't get more sciency than that. His Foundation, the Gates Foundation, is mostly active with making the world a better place for the less-fortunate to put it pretty simply. They strive for Global Development and a higher Global health. This is one of their Guiding principles:

Guiding Principle #3: Science and technology have great potential to improve lives around the world.

I have two christian non profit missions that exist to help the poor. That's what I do. I sold a profitable testing lab (we tested urine and blood etc) to start the missions. So maybe if I can get some work outside the USA I will be able go give her a bag of flour face to face, maybe you would like to volunteer as well? BTW before anyone expresses disbelieving all my mission and church activities are transparent to anyone donating. In other words if you don't believe me I will send you a complete financial abstract after a donation and small postage.

Does this not oppose your earlier statement where you were suggesting this woman should somehow be happy that she doesn't have our modern science? You want to go over to her to give her a bag of flour that has been engineered and modified by science to last longer? Isn't that using science to alleviate the suffering of the poor?

our a product of your environment but with some thinking and critical assessment you can rise above the mundane black and white world of logical positivism and elevate your spirit to a level not dreamed of by secular pundits. When I dabbled in eastern mysticism and learned to mediate this highest state of mediation was called being one with God. Base your reality on truth, not on the always moving sometimes fraudulent, always falsifiable science. Use science for what God intended a tool.

Unsupported wild speculation with mixes of religious views. Skipped. Try to refrain from bringing this stuff up, it has (1) nothing to do with the topic and (2) can't be proven to be correct by you.

The creator is the only God.

This is not an argument until you: Proof that (1) there was a creator and (2) there is a God and (3) this God is your God and (4) he was was also the creator.

The Egyptians may of called God Ra or whatever the Greeks called him Zeus, the native Americans called him the sky god or whatever, I call him the Hebrew God.

Egyptians and Greeks had many gods. This also does not proof your god created science.

It doesn't matter its more logical to assume that God exists rather than the indefensible sad paradigm of the hard atheist

There is an entire topic on that somewhere else on this forum, where you can discuss which side is more logical. This one is about abortion.

Why do you think there is something rather than nothing Ms Mash?

There are also probably other threads like this around as well, or you can make one ourself. I don't see how this question has any relevance to abortion. If it does please let me know and I'd be happy to answer it for you.

The archaeologist found the Hittites civilization, confirming the story in our bible.

The Da Vinci Code contains real paintings and real places, even described building correctly to the detail. Does this mean it is correct?