The Truth of Evolution
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The Truth of Evolution
Post #1Hello everyone. I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in the forum, so if it has, forgive me. But I was wondering if any of the evolutionists out there could answer this question for me......do you know of any truths that exist in the theory of evolution? In other words, is it purely based on speculation and the combination of completely different fossils to make it look like gradualism? Or is there actually truth to it?
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perplexed101
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Post #71
Theistic Evolution
The atheistic formula for evolution is:
Evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods.
In the theistic evolutionary view, God is added:
Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God.
In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things, whose Word has to be taken seriously by all men, but He is integrated into the evolutionary philosophy. This leads to 10 dangers for Christians.1
Danger No. 1 – Misrepresentation of the Nature of God
The Bible reveals God to us as our Father in Heaven, who is absolutely perfect (Matthew 5:48), holy (Isaiah 6:3), and omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17). The Apostle John tells us that 'God is love', 'light', and 'life' (1 John 4:16; 1:5; 1:1-2). When this God creates something, His work is described as 'very good' (Genesis 1:31) and 'perfect' (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Theistic evolution gives a false representation of the nature of God because death and ghastliness are ascribed to the Creator as principles of creation. (Progressive creationism, likewise, allows for millions of years of death and horror before sin.)
Danger No. 2 – God becomes a God of the Gaps
The Bible states that God is the Prime Cause of all things. 'But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him' (1 Corinthians 8:6).
However, in theistic evolution the only workspace allotted to God is that part of nature which evolution cannot 'explain' with the means presently at its disposal. In this way He is reduced to being a 'god of the gaps' for those phenomena about which there are doubts. This leads to the view that 'God is therefore not absolute, but He Himself has evolved - He is evolution'.2
Danger No. 3 – Denial of Central Biblical Teachings
The entire Bible bears witness that we are dealing with a source of truth authored by God (2 Timothy 3:16), with the Old Testament as the indispensable 'ramp' leading to the New Testament, like an access road leads to a motor free way (John 5:39). The biblical creation account should not be regarded as a myth, a parable, or an allegory, but as a historical report, because:
*Biological, astronomical and anthropological facts are given in didactic [teaching] form.
* In the Ten Commandments God bases the six working days and one day of rest on the same time-span as that described in the creation account (Exodus 20:8-11).
* In the New Testament Jesus referred to facts of the creation (e.g. Matthew 19:4-5).
*Nowhere in the Bible are there any indications that the creation account should be understood in any other way than as a factual report.
The doctrine of theistic evolution undermines this basic way of reading the Bible, as vouched for by Jesus, the prophets and the Apostles. Events reported in the Bible are reduced to mythical imagery, and an understanding of the message of the Bible as being true in word and meaning is lost.
Danger No. 4 – Loss of the Way for Finding God
The Bible describes man as being completely ensnared by sin after Adam's fall (Romans 7:18-19). Only those persons who realize that they are sinful and lost will seek the Saviour who 'came to save that which was lost' (Luke 19:10).
However, evolution knows no sin in the biblical sense of missing one's purpose (in relation to God). Sin is made meaningless, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Holy Spirit does - He declares sin to be sinful. If sin is seen as a harmless evolutionary factor, then one has lost the key for finding God, which is not resolved by adding 'God' to the evolutionary scenario.
Danger No. 5 – The Doctrine of God's Incarnation is Undermined
The incarnation of God through His Son Jesus Christ is one of the basic teachings of the Bible. The Bible states that 'The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us' (John 1:14), 'Christ Jesus ... was made in the likeness of men' (Philippians 2:5-7).
The idea of evolution undermines this foundation of our salvation. Evolutionist Hoimar von Ditfurth discusses the incompatibility of Jesus' incarnation and evolutionary thought: 'Consideration of evolution inevitably forces us to a critical review ... of Christian formulations. This clearly holds for the central Christian concept of the 'incarnation' of God ... '.3
Danger No. 6 – The Biblical Basis of Jesus' Work of Redemption Is Mythologized
The Bible teaches that the first man's fall into sin was a real event and that this was the direct cause of sin in the world. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned' (Romans 5:12).
Theistic evolution does not acknowledge Adam as the first man, nor that he was created directly from 'the dust of the ground' by God (Genesis 2:17). Most theistic evolutionists regard the creation account as being merely a mythical tale, albeit with some spiritual significance. However, the sinner Adam and the Saviour Jesus are linked together in the Bible - Romans 5:16-18. Thus any the logical view which mythologizes Adam undermines the biblical basis of Jesus' work of redemption.
Danger No. 7 – Loss of Biblical Chronology
The Bible provides us with a time-scale for history and this underlies a proper understanding of the Bible. This time-scale includes:
* The time-scale cannot be extended indefinitely into the past, nor into the future. There is a well-defined beginning in Genesis 1:1, as well as a moment when physical time will end (Matthew 24:14).
*The total duration of creation was six days (Exodus 20:11).
* The age of the universe may be estimated in terms of the genealogies recorded in the Bible (but note that it can not be calculated exactly). It is of the order of several thousand years, not billions.
* Galatians 4:4 points out the most outstanding event in the world's history: 'But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son.' This happened nearly 2,000 years ago.
*The return of Christ in power and glory is the greatest expected future event.
Supporters of theistic evolution (and progressive creation) disregard the biblically given measures of time in favour of evolutionist time-scales involving billions of years both past and future (for which there are no convincing physical grounds). This can lead to two errors:
1. Not all statements of the Bible are to be taken seriously.
2. Vigilance concerning the second coming of Jesus may be lost.
Danger No. 8 – Loss of Creation Concepts
Certain essential creation concepts are taught in the Bible. These include:
* God created matter without using any available material.
* God created the earth first, and on the fourth day He added the moon, the solar system, our local galaxy, and all other star systems. This sequence conflicts with all ideas of 'cosmic evolution', such as the 'big bang' cosmology.
Theistic evolution ignores all such biblical creation principles and replaces them with evolutionary notions, there by contradicting and opposing God's omnipotent acts of creation.
Danger No. 9 – Misrepresentation of Reality
The Bible carries the seal of truth, and all its pronouncements are authoritative - whether they deal with questions of faith and salvation, daily living, or matters of scientific importance.
Evolutionists brush all this aside, e.g. Richard Dawkins says,
'Nearly all peoples have developed their own creation myth, and the Genesis story is just the one that happened to have been adopted by one particular tribe of Middle Eastern herders. It has no more special status than the belief of a particular West African tribe that the world was created from the excrement of ants'.4
If evolution is false, then numerous sciences have embraced false testimony. Whenever these sciences conform with evolutionary views, they misrepresent reality. How much more then a theology which departs from what the Bible says and embraces evolution!
Danger No. 10 – Missing the Purpose
http://jesusfreak88.proboards23.com/ind ... 1102130401
The atheistic formula for evolution is:
Evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods.
In the theistic evolutionary view, God is added:
Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God.
In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things, whose Word has to be taken seriously by all men, but He is integrated into the evolutionary philosophy. This leads to 10 dangers for Christians.1
Danger No. 1 – Misrepresentation of the Nature of God
The Bible reveals God to us as our Father in Heaven, who is absolutely perfect (Matthew 5:48), holy (Isaiah 6:3), and omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17). The Apostle John tells us that 'God is love', 'light', and 'life' (1 John 4:16; 1:5; 1:1-2). When this God creates something, His work is described as 'very good' (Genesis 1:31) and 'perfect' (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Theistic evolution gives a false representation of the nature of God because death and ghastliness are ascribed to the Creator as principles of creation. (Progressive creationism, likewise, allows for millions of years of death and horror before sin.)
Danger No. 2 – God becomes a God of the Gaps
The Bible states that God is the Prime Cause of all things. 'But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him' (1 Corinthians 8:6).
However, in theistic evolution the only workspace allotted to God is that part of nature which evolution cannot 'explain' with the means presently at its disposal. In this way He is reduced to being a 'god of the gaps' for those phenomena about which there are doubts. This leads to the view that 'God is therefore not absolute, but He Himself has evolved - He is evolution'.2
Danger No. 3 – Denial of Central Biblical Teachings
The entire Bible bears witness that we are dealing with a source of truth authored by God (2 Timothy 3:16), with the Old Testament as the indispensable 'ramp' leading to the New Testament, like an access road leads to a motor free way (John 5:39). The biblical creation account should not be regarded as a myth, a parable, or an allegory, but as a historical report, because:
*Biological, astronomical and anthropological facts are given in didactic [teaching] form.
* In the Ten Commandments God bases the six working days and one day of rest on the same time-span as that described in the creation account (Exodus 20:8-11).
* In the New Testament Jesus referred to facts of the creation (e.g. Matthew 19:4-5).
*Nowhere in the Bible are there any indications that the creation account should be understood in any other way than as a factual report.
The doctrine of theistic evolution undermines this basic way of reading the Bible, as vouched for by Jesus, the prophets and the Apostles. Events reported in the Bible are reduced to mythical imagery, and an understanding of the message of the Bible as being true in word and meaning is lost.
Danger No. 4 – Loss of the Way for Finding God
The Bible describes man as being completely ensnared by sin after Adam's fall (Romans 7:18-19). Only those persons who realize that they are sinful and lost will seek the Saviour who 'came to save that which was lost' (Luke 19:10).
However, evolution knows no sin in the biblical sense of missing one's purpose (in relation to God). Sin is made meaningless, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Holy Spirit does - He declares sin to be sinful. If sin is seen as a harmless evolutionary factor, then one has lost the key for finding God, which is not resolved by adding 'God' to the evolutionary scenario.
Danger No. 5 – The Doctrine of God's Incarnation is Undermined
The incarnation of God through His Son Jesus Christ is one of the basic teachings of the Bible. The Bible states that 'The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us' (John 1:14), 'Christ Jesus ... was made in the likeness of men' (Philippians 2:5-7).
The idea of evolution undermines this foundation of our salvation. Evolutionist Hoimar von Ditfurth discusses the incompatibility of Jesus' incarnation and evolutionary thought: 'Consideration of evolution inevitably forces us to a critical review ... of Christian formulations. This clearly holds for the central Christian concept of the 'incarnation' of God ... '.3
Danger No. 6 – The Biblical Basis of Jesus' Work of Redemption Is Mythologized
The Bible teaches that the first man's fall into sin was a real event and that this was the direct cause of sin in the world. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned' (Romans 5:12).
Theistic evolution does not acknowledge Adam as the first man, nor that he was created directly from 'the dust of the ground' by God (Genesis 2:17). Most theistic evolutionists regard the creation account as being merely a mythical tale, albeit with some spiritual significance. However, the sinner Adam and the Saviour Jesus are linked together in the Bible - Romans 5:16-18. Thus any the logical view which mythologizes Adam undermines the biblical basis of Jesus' work of redemption.
Danger No. 7 – Loss of Biblical Chronology
The Bible provides us with a time-scale for history and this underlies a proper understanding of the Bible. This time-scale includes:
* The time-scale cannot be extended indefinitely into the past, nor into the future. There is a well-defined beginning in Genesis 1:1, as well as a moment when physical time will end (Matthew 24:14).
*The total duration of creation was six days (Exodus 20:11).
* The age of the universe may be estimated in terms of the genealogies recorded in the Bible (but note that it can not be calculated exactly). It is of the order of several thousand years, not billions.
* Galatians 4:4 points out the most outstanding event in the world's history: 'But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son.' This happened nearly 2,000 years ago.
*The return of Christ in power and glory is the greatest expected future event.
Supporters of theistic evolution (and progressive creation) disregard the biblically given measures of time in favour of evolutionist time-scales involving billions of years both past and future (for which there are no convincing physical grounds). This can lead to two errors:
1. Not all statements of the Bible are to be taken seriously.
2. Vigilance concerning the second coming of Jesus may be lost.
Danger No. 8 – Loss of Creation Concepts
Certain essential creation concepts are taught in the Bible. These include:
* God created matter without using any available material.
* God created the earth first, and on the fourth day He added the moon, the solar system, our local galaxy, and all other star systems. This sequence conflicts with all ideas of 'cosmic evolution', such as the 'big bang' cosmology.
Theistic evolution ignores all such biblical creation principles and replaces them with evolutionary notions, there by contradicting and opposing God's omnipotent acts of creation.
Danger No. 9 – Misrepresentation of Reality
The Bible carries the seal of truth, and all its pronouncements are authoritative - whether they deal with questions of faith and salvation, daily living, or matters of scientific importance.
Evolutionists brush all this aside, e.g. Richard Dawkins says,
'Nearly all peoples have developed their own creation myth, and the Genesis story is just the one that happened to have been adopted by one particular tribe of Middle Eastern herders. It has no more special status than the belief of a particular West African tribe that the world was created from the excrement of ants'.4
If evolution is false, then numerous sciences have embraced false testimony. Whenever these sciences conform with evolutionary views, they misrepresent reality. How much more then a theology which departs from what the Bible says and embraces evolution!
Danger No. 10 – Missing the Purpose
http://jesusfreak88.proboards23.com/ind ... 1102130401
Post #72
That's one very long quote perplexed101. I'm not sure what other readers are meant to do with it? It would help if you had prefaced it with some sort of explanation of what prompted you to copy it here. It seems to be a warning to theists to stay away from accepting any part of evolutionary theory, listing as it does ten dangers of contradicting the bible.
Post #73
If there is a God, then physical death is of no importance.Danger No. 1 – Misrepresentation of the Nature of God
The Bible reveals God to us as our Father in Heaven, who is absolutely perfect (Matthew 5:4Cool, holy (Isaiah 6:3), and omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17). The Apostle John tells us that 'God is love', 'light', and 'life' (1 John 4:16; 1:5; 1:1-2). When this God creates something, His work is described as 'very good' (Genesis 1:31) and 'perfect' (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Theistic evolution gives a false representation of the nature of God because death and ghastliness are ascribed to the Creator as principles of creation. (Progressive creationism, likewise, allows for millions of years of death and horror before sin.)
Also, if you want to argue like that, why didn't God intervene in the past at least 4000 years? Why did he allow all the bloodshed?
Furthermore, if God is omniscient, then He knew that mankind would fall. He made something he knew would get corrupted, and He was fine with it apparently.
No, not at all! It's not theistic evolution that you're describing there. In TE God is still believed to be behind almost everything. Just because we know that mutation and natural selection are capable of producing new species that does not mean that these always happened conpletely randomly. God could easily have guided the process to get what he desired.Danger No. 2 – God becomes a God of the Gaps
The Bible states that God is the Prime Cause of all things. 'But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him' (1 Corinthians 8:6).
However, in theistic evolution the only workspace allotted to God is that part of nature which evolution cannot 'explain' with the means presently at its disposal. In this way He is reduced to being a 'god of the gaps' for those phenomena about which there are doubts. This leads to the view that 'God is therefore not absolute, but He Himself has evolved - He is evolution'.2
Do you believe that the devil took Jesus onto a mountain from which he could see all the kingdoms of the earth? The report of this in the Bible reads like a factual report in my opinion, yet it quite clearly never happened as we meanwhile can know...unless the earth was quite flat.Danger No. 3 – Denial of Central Biblical Teachings
The entire Bible bears witness that we are dealing with a source of truth authored by God (2 Timothy 3:16), with the Old Testament as the indispensable 'ramp' leading to the New Testament, like an access road leads to a motor free way (John 5:39). The biblical creation account should not be regarded as a myth, a parable, or an allegory, but as a historical report, because:
*Biological, astronomical and anthropological facts are given in didactic [teaching] form.
* In the Ten Commandments God bases the six working days and one day of rest on the same time-span as that described in the creation account (Exodus 20:8-11).
* In the New Testament Jesus referred to facts of the creation (e.g. Matthew 19:4-5).
*Nowhere in the Bible are there any indications that the creation account should be understood in any other way than as a factual report.
The doctrine of theistic evolution undermines this basic way of reading the Bible, as vouched for by Jesus, the prophets and the Apostles. Events reported in the Bible are reduced to mythical imagery, and an understanding of the message of the Bible as being true in word and meaning is lost.
If evidence from God's own creation contradicts the Bible, then reinterpreting the latter is better than just disregarding it as false completely.
If there is a God, then there is sin. I know that i screw up sometimes regardless of the question if Adam and Eve are from a certain tree.Danger No. 4 – Loss of the Way for Finding God
The Bible describes man as being completely ensnared by sin after Adam's fall (Romans 7:18-19). Only those persons who realize that they are sinful and lost will seek the Saviour who 'came to save that which was lost' (Luke 19:10).
However, evolution knows no sin in the biblical sense of missing one's purpose (in relation to God). Sin is made meaningless, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Holy Spirit does - He declares sin to be sinful. If sin is seen as a harmless evolutionary factor, then one has lost the key for finding God, which is not resolved by adding 'God' to the evolutionary scenario.
Could you elaborate? I completely fail to see your point.Danger No. 5 – The Doctrine of God's Incarnation is Undermined
The incarnation of God through His Son Jesus Christ is one of the basic teachings of the Bible. The Bible states that 'The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us' (John 1:14), 'Christ Jesus ... was made in the likeness of men' (Philippians 2:5-7).
The idea of evolution undermines this foundation of our salvation. Evolutionist Hoimar von Ditfurth discusses the incompatibility of Jesus' incarnation and evolutionary thought: 'Consideration of evolution inevitably forces us to a critical review ... of Christian formulations. This clearly holds for the central Christian concept of the 'incarnation' of God ... '.3
I don't believe the literal fall was the basis for Jesus work in first instance.Danger No. 6 – The Biblical Basis of Jesus' Work of Redemption Is Mythologized
The Bible teaches that the first man's fall into sin was a real event and that this was the direct cause of sin in the world. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned' (Romans 5:12).
I also believe that it was mankind's intellectual development that is metaphorically described in the story of Adam and Eve...this even fits nicely with the punishment for eating from the "tree of knowledge" - childbirth becomes painful, which in real life is the result of our large heads, a consequence of our brains. Hard work on the fields is the result of agriculture, once again a product of intellectual development.
Even if Peter's statement is required to be literal truth (which i don't believe either...Peter was but a fallible man), then he might be referring to the first human who was capable of discerning good from evil. So there even might have been some Adam in my interpretation, he just didn't fall by eating a literal apple.
More later...i need some coffee now.
Post #74
Agreed. But on the other hand, there is a similar danger to literalism: If a literalist becomes convinced that the Bible is wrong on one issue, he might discard it completely. Neither side is free of risk in this regard.Danger No. 7 – Loss of Biblical Chronology
The Bible provides us with a time-scale for history and this underlies a proper understanding of the Bible. This time-scale includes:
* The time-scale cannot be extended indefinitely into the past, nor into the future. There is a well-defined beginning in Genesis 1:1, as well as a moment when physical time will end (Matthew 24:14).
*The total duration of creation was six days (Exodus 20:11).
* The age of the universe may be estimated in terms of the genealogies recorded in the Bible (but note that it can not be calculated exactly). It is of the order of several thousand years, not billions.
* Galatians 4:4 points out the most outstanding event in the world's history: 'But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son.' This happened nearly 2,000 years ago.
*The return of Christ in power and glory is the greatest expected future event.
Supporters of theistic evolution (and progressive creation) disregard the biblically given measures of time in favour of evolutionist time-scales involving billions of years both past and future (for which there are no convincing physical grounds). This can lead to two errors:
1. Not all statements of the Bible are to be taken seriously.
2. Vigilance concerning the second coming of Jesus may be lost.
God can very well be responsible for the matter in the universe, the theory of evolution makes no statement whatsoever about this.Danger No. 8 – Loss of Creation Concepts
Certain essential creation concepts are taught in the Bible. These include:
* God created matter without using any available material.
* God created the earth first, and on the fourth day He added the moon, the solar system, our local galaxy, and all other star systems. This sequence conflicts with all ideas of 'cosmic evolution', such as the 'big bang' cosmology.
Theistic evolution ignores all such biblical creation principles and replaces them with evolutionary notions, there by contradicting and opposing God's omnipotent acts of creation.
However, in your argumentation you presuppose that six day creationism is correct. If it's not, then theistic evolution doesn't oppose God about this. You're begging the question there.
In other words, we should stop all research, close our eyes to the world and ignore all evidence for evolution? You can't be serious! Keep in mind, the very computer which you used is based on such supposedly flawed sciences, e.g. physics. Physics is pretty much copatible with evolution, yet your computer seems to work just fine.Danger No. 9 – Misrepresentation of Reality
The Bible carries the seal of truth, and all its pronouncements are authoritative - whether they deal with questions of faith and salvation, daily living, or matters of scientific importance.
Evolutionists brush all this aside, e.g. Richard Dawkins says,
'Nearly all peoples have developed their own creation myth, and the Genesis story is just the one that happened to have been adopted by one particular tribe of Middle Eastern herders. It has no more special status than the belief of a particular West African tribe that the world was created from the excrement of ants'.4
If evolution is false, then numerous sciences have embraced false testimony. Whenever these sciences conform with evolutionary views, they misrepresent reality. How much more then a theology which departs from what the Bible says and embraces evolution!
However...the same can just be said about creationism.
Re: The Truth of Evolution
Post #75I recently started a topic with the intention of delivering Proof that evolution works. The proof exists in terms of our ability to take the theory of evolution as read directly from nature and make machines that harness the principles to produce autonomous designs for us. This must be accepted as proof that the underlying principles of the theory are true.axeplayer wrote:Hello everyone. I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in the forum, so if it has, forgive me. But I was wondering if any of the evolutionists out there could answer this question for me......do you know of any truths that exist in the theory of evolution? In other words, is it purely based on speculation and the combination of completely different fossils to make it look like gradualism? Or is there actually truth to it?
All that is left to be argued is whether this proven mechanism accounts for the apparent design seen in organic life. I would argue that the likelihood for this is very high given that we drew our inspiration for our engineering applications from direct observations of nature in the first place -- i.e. it was not our idea but hers.
Theories are normally judged by their powers of explanation and prediction. The fact that it has been possible to turn this theory into practice compels me to see it as a good candidate for the source of apparent design in biology. The predictions made by the theory are also very evident in biology which tells me it is beyond doubt the mechanism used by nature as well.
Post #76
As jwu responded point by point to the 10 dangers, I will not (at least until I have more timeperplexed wrote:Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God.
In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things, whose Word has to be taken seriously by all men, but He is integrated into the evolutionary philosophy. This leads to 10 dangers for Christians.
).I will point out that whether or not any of these dangers are really valid is irrelevant to the truth of evolution. Just because an idea may have possible negative consequences does not mean it is true.
I will also offer one danger of believing in a 6-day creation, in spite of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. It is the same danger suffered by those who believed the Copernican System was unbiblical and antithetical to proper Christian doctrine. Namely, being absolutely insistent on a particular interpretation of scripture that subsequently proves to be false can lead to an undermining of the faith, or at least a blow to the reputation of the faith or those who believe in it.
