Hello all!

[TXatheist]

Hello,

I just wanted to say hi to all. I joined today and I am looking forward to reading and discussing more here, as religion is always one of my favorite topics to debate. I was a Christian for the first 35 years of my life, but I became an Atheist about a year ago and I am so much happier today than I ever was when I was seeking god. But I won't bore your with my whole bio here, so....


Cheers!
DAStaten
http://www.Religulous.org

[TXatheist]

I've always thought that a preacher and his family should live a very humble life. They should take the money that the church provides, use what they need to live a good life, and then use the rest for the church and for those who need it. I would love to be rich. I would buy a nice two bedroom house and an economic car, and then invest enough to bring in a steady income. Then I would take the rest and use it to feed and clothe the poor and buy medicine for those who can't afford it or don't have access to it. I would love to rent a plane and load it with food and medicine and fly it to Africa and hand out everything to those people. What the hell good is 10 million dollars if it is sitting in my bank account? Jesus didn't wear Armani suits or gold. He didn't live in a mansion. Preachers tell us to aspire to be like Jesus and then they do the exact opposite. That's one thing I do respect about the BMC preachers; they live very humble lives. That preacher at Maranatha could sell one of his cars and use the money to feed and clothe a whole community. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about how he's living while his flock suffers and still gives him 10% of their income.

It's crazy how people fork out their last dime for a promise that they will be rewarded after they are dead. The preacher and the church prosper right in front of their eyes while the loyal congregation clings to the belief that they are stacking up their own rewards in heaven. And there's no money back guarantee in the end. They die, they get buried, and the preacher goes out and buys a new Lexus. End of story.

Yours and my parents are in the same boat. My step-dad is in his mid fifties and has to work a second job at Wal-Mart so that he and my mother can pay their bills. But every month they give their ten percent to the church, which amounts to a few hundred dollars. And for what? So that the church can go on recruiting new members to hand over their hard earned cash in exchange for the promise of eternal life. I'm telling you man, you and I are in the wrong business. The churches have it all figured out. Who else can ask for ten percent of your income before taxes and in exchange offer you gifts that you won't get until after you're dead? Even car dealerships don't have the nerve to try that.

And Christians think that when they are short fifty bucks and then they get an unexpected fifty dollar check in the mail, that god has provided for them. Well, what about all the times that the fifty bucks didn't show up? They don't mention that in their stories of miracles. Those instances where they had to suffer or pawn something are discarded. We only hear about the instances where the check fit the need. It's like looking back on a failed relationship. We only remember the good times. When we tell someone about how we miss our ex, we don't tell all the stories that led to the horrible breakup. We don't mention how miserable we were. We talk about the good times and how we wish things had worked out. And what am I supposed to make of it when I, an Atheist, need fifty bucks and I get an unexpected fifty dollar check in the mail? Did the god that I absolutely do not believe in bless me? Some Christians will actually say that he did, just to show me that he loves me and is trying to win me over. And then they'll turn around and tell you that god does not hear the prayers of the unsaved. You can't have it both ways. But they like to twist their information around to fit whatever the need and convince you that god is there and helping you. You know the saying, "you don't have to believe in god, he believes in you." Riiiiiiight. Next your going to sell me a lemon, aren't you?

My mother still believes that during her times of forsaking god, when she was out partying, drinking, doing drugs, and had nothing to do with religion, god was watching out for her and kept her from being hurt. You don't have to be a genius or even a Christian to immediately see how that completely contradicts the bible and everything god stands for. But try to tell her different and, just like any other Christian, you'll get an irrational mumbo jumbo excuse for god and his ways. Someone once said, "For god being a perfect being, we sure have to make a lot of excuses for him."

It takes a special kind of person to look at religion with a rational mind and then still accept it. Some people need structure and guidance from somewhere, even if it is from an imaginary source. Some people just can't imagine that they are responsible for their own lives and that they need to do the steering themselves. They need an anchor and a written set of rules. They need someone to tell them what their purpose is. Otherwise, they would just float aimlessly though life, unsatisfied, not knowing whether they are doing right or wrong. When life is unfair, they would have to acknowledge that fact instead of believing that there is an ultimate justice waiting for them in an afterlife. The sad and unfortunate truth is that the meek do not inherit the earth. The meek get pushed around and mistreated and one day they die and turn to dust just like the rich and powerful and famous. One day we are all worm food. What makes us different is what we choose to do while we are here.

Wow, I didn't mean to turn all doom and gloom. I guess it's just late and I'm tired. I'm really enjoying our discussion though, and I look forward to picking it up tomorrow. You and I seem to have a lot in common. Take care and I'll see ya tomorrow.

[olavisjo]

Welcome to the forum, it is a good place to organize your thoughts.

I am sorry to hear about your encounters with "religion", it can be nasty. I learned my lesson about organized religion early in my Christian walk, way back in 1978 I was invited to a meeting held at the "El Cortez" in San Diego where Morris Cerullo was speaking. And for some reason the ushers thought that I was going to be disruptive to the meeting so they herded me into a closet and I had to wait there till the police came and took me back to the Naval Base where I was stationed. I don't remember why they thought that I would be a problem for them but that is the way I was in those days, I used to confront the Scientologists, Christian Scientists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Harri Krishnas and anybody else I could find. I learned quickly where God was not. So my church has been mostly a lose band of brothers and sisters in Christ.
You say you have been a Christian for 35 years and you are 35 years old, which makes me wonder when were you "born again". To be a Christian you must be born again, do you remember when that happened?
My birth into Christianity started here...
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ht=#200138
but it took many years before God made himself known to me.

I wish you good hunting.

[TXatheist]

Hi olavisjo,

When I say I was a Christian for 35 years, I basically mean all my life my family has attended Christian churches. I guess that could be misleading, depending on what you consider to be the moment that I became a Christian. I can't even tell you when I was "saved." Every church seems to do things differently. I wasn't saved in a Charismatic church, but I was baptized in one around the age of 10 (I wasn't even old enough to fully understand what I was doing). I wasn't baptized in the BMC church, but I was saved in one. I've been saved several times in my life. I would stray and then come back and rededicate my life. I spoke in tongues in one church (boy do I feel silly about that now...) but not the others. So, when was I born again? Which time? lol

[Goose]

But in the end, I realized the only thing missing was my rational thought. When I put rational thought back into the equation, everything fell apart and I was left with the truth

Hmm... I'm always intrigued by this type of statement and the idea that rational thought will lead to the conclusion that Christianity is false. Would you be open to debating in the head-to-head to the best argument you can come up with against Christianity? I'd like to see if it is indeed rational and will falsify Christianity. It will probably be a good challenge for me as well. Let me know by PM (or here) if you are interested. I'll check back later. Oh, and welcome to the forum.

[TXatheist]

Sent you a PM, Goose.

[Goose]

Hi religulous,

[strike]Thanks for your PM and I responded but my response seems to be still in my outbox so you may not have got it yet. You should have if you've logged in since then. Could be "technical difficulties."If you haven't got my response, let me know and I'll try to send it again. Failing that I can post my response here, if you have no objections, before we get the head-to-head started.[/strike]

edit: I think you've now recieved my PM. I'll await your repsonse.

[OnceConvinced]

And Christians think that when they are short fifty bucks and then they get an unexpected fifty dollar check in the mail, that god has provided for them. Well, what about all the times that the fifty bucks didn't show up?

Yeah, this is standard. When one time God comes through for you, you make a big deal about it. But the other hundred times, you conveniently ignore.

It's like looking back on a failed relationship. We only remember the good times. When we tell someone about how we miss our ex, we don't tell all the stories that led to the horrible breakup. We don't mention how miserable we were.

This is so true! It's human nature I think to tend to remember the good things. I remember throughout the 80s having a horrible time in many different areas. School for me was a miserable time too. But yet now I look back on that decade it is mainly with fond memories, but yet I know (and I can read a couple of my journals to prove it) that it was a rough time for me. We as humans seem to like to look on things with rose coloured glasses I think.

We talk about the good times and how we wish things had worked out. And what am I supposed to make of it when I, an Atheist, need fifty bucks and I get an unexpected fifty dollar check in the mail? Did the god that I absolutely do not believe in bless me? Some Christians will actually say that he did, just to show me that he loves me and is trying to win me over. And then they'll turn around and tell you that god does not hear the prayers of the unsaved. You can't have it both ways. But they like to twist their information around to fit whatever the need and convince you that god is there and helping you. You know the saying, "you don't have to believe in god, he believes in you." Riiiiiiight. Next your going to sell me a lemon, aren't you?

Yep. Whatever is the best argument at the time is used. You see that all the time here. And as soon as you turn it around on them, suddenly the evasion tactics kick into action, or the insults and threats of Hell. The contradictions are quickly swept under the carpet with them saying "You just don't understand scripture!"

My mother still believes that during her times of forsaking god, when she was out partying, drinking, doing drugs, and had nothing to do with religion, god was watching out for her and kept her from being hurt. You don't have to be a genius or even a Christian to immediately see how that completely contradicts the bible and everything god stands for. But try to tell her different and, just like any other Christian, you'll get an irrational mumbo jumbo excuse for god and his ways. Someone once said, "For god being a perfect being, we sure have to make a lot of excuses for him."

Yeah, the bad and good happens to everyone regardless of your creed. Being a Christian doesn't gaurantee any additional safety and being a non-Christian doesn't mean life is going to be any worse for you. Those people that beleive God was looking over them should spare a thought for those who undergo terrible suffering and often death, who God seems to have ignored.

[OnceConvinced]

Hi olavisjo,

When I say I was a Christian for 35 years, I basically mean all my life my family has attended Christian churches. I guess that could be misleading, depending on what you consider to be the moment that I became a Christian. I can't even tell you when I was "saved." Every church seems to do things differently. I wasn't saved in a Charismatic church, but I was baptized in one around the age of 10 (I wasn't even old enough to fully understand what I was doing). I wasn't baptized in the BMC church, but I was saved in one. I've been saved several times in my life. I would stray and then come back and rededicate my life. I spoke in tongues in one church (boy do I feel silly about that now...) but not the others. So, when was I born again? Which time? lol

Yeah, I was born into a Christian home and could easily claim I've been a Christian for the first 38 years of my life, because basically I knew nothing else. Christianity was drilled into me as fact and as a life style. If I had died before the age of understanding, no doubt I'd be elibable for Heaven. I normally say "30 + years" which sort of accounts for the entire 38. And if people want to be picky, well, I first gave my life to Christ at about 7 years old. I remember doing some rededications later on as well, not that I ever rebelled.

BTW, if the debate with Goose goes ahead, I'll be following it. Should be fun.

[TXatheist]

BTW, if the debate with Goose goes ahead, I'll be following it. Should be fun.

Yeah, we're going to do it. We've been PMing. I'm an amateur at defending the Atheists' side since I've only been an Atheist for about a year. I'm used to arguing for the other side which consisted of quoting scripture and saying "you don't understand because you don't have god in your life." But I like having rational thought and logic as my main tools now. It should be interesting. If he convinces me I'm wrong and I decide to go back to church, for the love of Pete please stop me! lol