What is wrong with abortion?

[arunangelo]

What is wrong with abortion?

Those who exercise true love respect all human beings irrespective of their appearance or size. They, therefore, recognize the humanity of a one cell stage human being by recognizing that it is an independent life form with human genes; and has a human life force within it that initiates, directs and sustains a process to take that person through successive stages of development (over many years) to transform that person from a single cell individual to a fully grown human being with 10 trillion cells, multiple complex systems and a brain with a memory capacity equal to 20,000 computers. They, therefore see destruction of human beings in the embryonic and fetal stage as murder. They also see such an act as gross violation of human rights because it denies the victim from reaching his/her full human potential.

[DarkMaster24]

I don't think the fetus is independent nor do I concider it to be human life. It may be living but it doesn't have a brain, so it's outside of my ethical concern.

[Gonzo]

I don't think the fetus is independent nor do I concider it to be human life. It may be living but it doesn't have a brain, so it's outside of my ethical concern.

It does have a brain, at 9 weeks its major structure is in place, but I'm with Catalyst on this one. It's for the woman to decide otherwise its hypocritical (regarding the sperm cell dilemma). If someone doesn't want a parasite like creature inside them then they shouldn't be forced to.

I, unlike most, personally see no problem with it being used in any form. Stem cells are rather useful, but then it raises the ethical question of harvesting fetuses for personal gain (which I do admit is a rather creepy thought).

If I was aborted, whatever, that's how life is, I didn't choose to be created either, then again I don't really chose anything, but I'm just a determinist, so everything that happens couldn't have happened any other way, I just try to make the best of it because I can't see the mechanisms of fate in action.

[userr123]

I can't see a single cell as a person any more than an ant...

A person is a person no matter how small.
An unborn baby is much more than just a lifeless, single cell. Ultra-sound recordings during abortions have given evidence that the unborn baby goes through imence pain and suffering as the abortion takes place. The person is scientifically proven to be fully human at conception.
If you think you are too young to have the baby, then I don't see why you were already having sex in the first place.

[Goat]

I can't see a single cell as a person any more than an ant...

A person is a person no matter how small.
An unborn baby is much more than just a lifeless, single cell. Ultra-sound recordings during abortions have given evidence that the unborn baby goes through imence pain and suffering as the abortion takes place. The person is scientifically proven to be fully human at conception.
If you think you are too young to have the baby, then I don't see why you were already having sex in the first place.

Define what you mean by 'fully human'. You make a claim 'ultra-sound recordings during abortion have given evidence that the unborn baby (an oxymoron, if it is unborn, it is a fetus not a baby) going through pain and suffering. Prove that statement.

[userr123]

I can't see a single cell as a person any more than an ant...

A person is a person no matter how small.
An unborn baby is much more than just a lifeless, single cell. Ultra-sound recordings during abortions have given evidence that the unborn baby goes through imence pain and suffering as the abortion takes place. The person is scientifically proven to be fully human at conception.
If you think you are too young to have the baby, then I don't see why you were already having sex in the first place.

Define what you mean by 'fully human'. You make a claim 'ultra-sound recordings during abortion have given evidence that the unborn baby (an oxymoron, if it is unborn, it is a fetus not a baby) going through pain and suffering. Prove that statement.

By fully human, I mean a functional person that has yet to reach it's full potential. A fetus IS a baby. A person is a person no matter how small
You want me to tell you about the ultra-sound recording? You can see for yourself:

[catalyst]

I can't see a single cell as a person any more than an ant...

A person is a person no matter how small.
An unborn baby is much more than just a lifeless, single cell. Ultra-sound recordings during abortions have given evidence that the unborn baby goes through imence pain and suffering as the abortion takes place. The person is scientifically proven to be fully human at conception.
If you think you are too young to have the baby, then I don't see why you were already having sex in the first place.

Define what you mean by 'fully human'. You make a claim 'ultra-sound recordings during abortion have given evidence that the unborn baby (an oxymoron, if it is unborn, it is a fetus not a baby) going through pain and suffering. Prove that statement.

By fully human, I mean a functional person that has yet to reach it's full potential. A fetus IS a baby. A person is a person no matter how small
You want me to tell you about the ultra-sound recording? You can see for yourself:

I have seen the video and your comment (highlighted in red) is patently untrue.

Medical Inaccuracies in The Silent Scream

* CLAIM: The 12-week fetus experiences pain.
* FACTS: At this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are still in a very early stage of development. The beginnings of the brain stem, which includes a rudimentary thalamus and spinal cord, is being formed. Most brain cells are not developed. Without a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), pain impulses cannot be received or perceived. Additionally, experts find that newborns at 26–27 weeks' gestation (24–25 weeks' fetal age) who survive have significantly less response to pain than do full term newborns.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
Statement on Pain of the Fetus

We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.

We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.

To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

* CLAIM: The 12-week fetus makes purposeful movements (e.g., agitated movement in an attempt to avoid suction cannula).
* FACTS: At this stage of pregnancy, all fetal movement is reflexive in nature rather than purposeful, since the latter requires cognition, which is the ability to perceive and know. For cognition to occur, the cortex (gray matter covering the brain) must be present, as well as myelinization (covering sheath) of the spinal cord and attached nerves, which is not the case.

An example of the reflex withdrawal without pain occurs in an anencephalic (absent brain) newborn. Another known example of the reflex movement at this stage of human pregnancy is thumb sucking in utero.

What is termed "frantic activity" by the fetus is a reflex response of the fetus resulting from movement of the uterus and its contents induced by operator manipulation of the suction curette or the ultrasound transducer on the abdomen. This same type of response would likely occur with any external stimulus. A one-cell organism such as an amoeba will reflexively move or display a withdrawal reaction when touched.

In addition, experts in ultrasonography and film technology have concluded that the videotape of the abortion was deliberately slowed down and subsequently speeded up to create an impression of hyperactivity.

* CLAIM: Ultrasonogram depicts the open mouth of the fetus.
* FACTS: The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. The statement that the screen identifies the open mouth of the fetus is a subjective and misleading interpretation by Dr. Nathanson. His conclusion is not supportable.

* CLAIM: The fetus emits "the silent scream."
* FACTS: A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Although primitive respiratory movements do occur in the later stages of gestation, crying or screaming cannot occur even then. In fact, a child born prematurely at 26–27 weeks' gestation (24–25 weeks' fetal age) cannot scream but occasionally emits weak cries.

* CLAIM: A fetus is indistinguishable from any of the rest of us.
* FACTS: A fetus of 12 weeks cannot in any way be compared to a fully formed functioning person. At this stage only rudiments of the organ systems are present. The fetus is unable to sustain life outside the woman's womb, it is incapable of conscious thought; it is incapable of essential breathing. It is instead an in utero fetus with the potential of becoming a child.

[userr123]

I can't see a single cell as a person any more than an ant...

A person is a person no matter how small.
An unborn baby is much more than just a lifeless, single cell. Ultra-sound recordings during abortions have given evidence that the unborn baby goes through imence pain and suffering as the abortion takes place. The person is scientifically proven to be fully human at conception.
If you think you are too young to have the baby, then I don't see why you were already having sex in the first place.

Define what you mean by 'fully human'. You make a claim 'ultra-sound recordings during abortion have given evidence that the unborn baby (an oxymoron, if it is unborn, it is a fetus not a baby) going through pain and suffering. Prove that statement.

By fully human, I mean a functional person that has yet to reach it's full potential. A fetus IS a baby. A person is a person no matter how small
You want me to tell you about the ultra-sound recording? You can see for yourself:

I have seen the video and your comment (highlighted in red) is patently untrue.

Medical Inaccuracies in The Silent Scream

* CLAIM: The 12-week fetus experiences pain.
* FACTS: At this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are still in a very early stage of development. The beginnings of the brain stem, which includes a rudimentary thalamus and spinal cord, is being formed. Most brain cells are not developed. Without a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), pain impulses cannot be received or perceived. Additionally, experts find that newborns at 26–27 weeks' gestation (24–25 weeks' fetal age) who survive have significantly less response to pain than do full term newborns.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
Statement on Pain of the Fetus

We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.

We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.

To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

* CLAIM: The 12-week fetus makes purposeful movements (e.g., agitated movement in an attempt to avoid suction cannula).
* FACTS: At this stage of pregnancy, all fetal movement is reflexive in nature rather than purposeful, since the latter requires cognition, which is the ability to perceive and know. For cognition to occur, the cortex (gray matter covering the brain) must be present, as well as myelinization (covering sheath) of the spinal cord and attached nerves, which is not the case.

An example of the reflex withdrawal without pain occurs in an anencephalic (absent brain) newborn. Another known example of the reflex movement at this stage of human pregnancy is thumb sucking in utero.

What is termed "frantic activity" by the fetus is a reflex response of the fetus resulting from movement of the uterus and its contents induced by operator manipulation of the suction curette or the ultrasound transducer on the abdomen. This same type of response would likely occur with any external stimulus. A one-cell organism such as an amoeba will reflexively move or display a withdrawal reaction when touched.

In addition, experts in ultrasonography and film technology have concluded that the videotape of the abortion was deliberately slowed down and subsequently speeded up to create an impression of hyperactivity.

* CLAIM: Ultrasonogram depicts the open mouth of the fetus.
* FACTS: The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. The statement that the screen identifies the open mouth of the fetus is a subjective and misleading interpretation by Dr. Nathanson. His conclusion is not supportable.

* CLAIM: The fetus emits "the silent scream."
* FACTS: A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Although primitive respiratory movements do occur in the later stages of gestation, crying or screaming cannot occur even then. In fact, a child born prematurely at 26–27 weeks' gestation (24–25 weeks' fetal age) cannot scream but occasionally emits weak cries.

* CLAIM: A fetus is indistinguishable from any of the rest of us.
* FACTS: A fetus of 12 weeks cannot in any way be compared to a fully formed functioning person. At this stage only rudiments of the organ systems are present. The fetus is unable to sustain life outside the woman's womb, it is incapable of conscious thought; it is incapable of essential breathing. It is instead an in utero fetus with the potential of becoming a child.

First off, I did not mean to highlight that statement in red (my bad).
Anyways, abortion is still the killing of an innocent life that could have made a positive impact on the world but was aborted by an irresponsible parent. A short while ago, my school filled the surrounding fields with crosses; each cross symbolizing a life that was taken through abortion per day. The field was scattered with over 3,200 white crosses. You try to tell me that isn't wrong.

[Goat]

First off, I did not mean to highlight that statement in red (my bad).
Anyways, abortion is still the killing of an innocent life that could have made a positive impact on the world but was aborted by an irresponsible parent. A short while ago, my school filled the surrounding fields with crosses; each cross symbolizing a life that was taken through abortion per day. The field was scattered with over 3,200 white crosses. You try to tell me that isn't wrong.

Well, she busted your source and your claims, so now you are retreating. The 'could have made a positive impact on the world' is pure speculation. If someone has an irresponsible parent, it is more likely the person will be a detriment to society than a positive. The next problem I see is that you are assuming that the abortion is merely the desire for birth control. I would like to see you support that that is so, rather than medical reasons, or rape.

Do you have something more than emotionalism and unsupported claims?

[catalyst]

First off, I did not mean to highlight that statement in red (my bad).
Anyways, abortion is still the killing of an innocent life that could have made a positive impact on the world but was aborted by an irresponsible parent. A short while ago, my school filled the surrounding fields with crosses; each cross symbolizing a life that was taken through abortion per day. The field was scattered with over 3,200 white crosses. You try to tell me that isn't wrong.

The red was my emphasis, not yours. It also appears to me that you are ignoring the medical FACTS presented, verses the ardous claims made in said video, which are nothing more than hyperbole; riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies.

If you could cite references supporting your claim 3200 abortions per day, I would appreciate it. Please provide link to source if at all possible as well.

FTR, I am a mother of two. I personally would never have a pregnancy terminated on "whim", I am however, pro-choice.

As you seem to have interest in the abortion issue, I can suggest you have a look up in the "Putting Our Heads Together" forum, on the thread regarding abortion. Perhaps as you appear to be quite zealous, you may have some "solution" to the issue?

[userr123]

First off, I did not mean to highlight that statement in red (my bad).
Anyways, abortion is still the killing of an innocent life that could have made a positive impact on the world but was aborted by an irresponsible parent. A short while ago, my school filled the surrounding fields with crosses; each cross symbolizing a life that was taken through abortion per day. The field was scattered with over 3,200 white crosses. You try to tell me that isn't wrong.

Well, she busted your source and your claims, so now you are retreating. The 'could have made a positive impact on the world' is pure speculation. If someone has an irresponsible parent, it is more likely the person will be a detriment to society than a positive. The next problem I see is that you are assuming that the abortion is merely the desire for birth control. I would like to see you support that that is so, rather than medical reasons, or rape.

Do you have something more than emotionalism and unsupported claims?

I have something called morals and truth. I may only be 16 but I'm suprised to see that I feel like the only one that can still tell right from wrong. First of all, God did not create sex to be used outside of marriage. Sex was created to create a close bond between two spouses and to be "fruitful and multiply." If society would stick to proper morals and ethics, than we shouldn't even have to worry about abortion. Also, a baby being concieved as a result of rape is extremely rare and is not a decent argument to support abortion.