Christianity is false because it contradicts itself.

[RyanP]

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live." --Ezekiel 18:21-22

We are justified by our behavior.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith." --Romans 3:28-30

We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

[myth-one.com]

Nowhere in the Bible is the genesis of angels explained. Yes, we know Yahweh manifests himself physically in this world but we don't know how or why. Why did you say "a third of these angels under the archangel Satan rebelled against God?" Why a third? Where did you get that information?

The archangel Lucifer was either given or seized control of the earth. How do we know that Lucifer controls the earth? In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased. Jesus' immediate response was:

Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)

Once God makes a covenant, or testament, or promise, He always keeps it. Satan was given rule over the earth. Although he rebelled against his creator, God did not and will not violate the agreement. Satan was given rule over the world and a ruler must be defeated and overthrown! This is one of the reasons Jesus is coming to the earth, to defeat Satan. So the ruler of the earth is Satan, and he decided sometime between the first two verses of the Bible to rebel against God. The ultimate results of his rebellion and rule are the conditions of chaos described on the earth in verse two. Satan was an archangel, and his staff was a host of angels:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

Although we do not know the exact number under Satan's authority, it was one-third of the total number of angels. Looking back, my writing may have been confusing. I wrote "a third of these angels under the archangel Satan rebelled." It was not a third of the angels under Satan. I meant a third of the total number of angels rebelled with Satan leading the rebellion. Sorry if that was confusing. In any event, Satan and the angels who joined his rebellion against God were exiled from the Kingdom of God and restricted to ruling the earth:

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth... (Revelation 12:4)

"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation. Actually, it was a third of the angels of heaven. Some or all of these rebellious angels are now in hell awaiting judgment:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

To me, estate implies assignment or area of responsibility. That is why I believe Satan was originally assigned to maintain the earth with the other angels under his authority. But Satan was unhappy and wanted to become equal with God:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars (angels) of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Due to their rebellion and neglecting their assignment, the good earth as originally created in Genesis 1:1 had reached a state of no form, void, and dark:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

Man is now being groomed to replace these rebels:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth... (Genesis 1:28)

Replenish indicates to make full or complete a second time!

[TMMaria]

As far as Mithra and salavation. look at Yasna, 53

Yasna 53

Verse 1:
Every wish of the prophet Zarathushtra Spitama have been fulfilled in the best possible manner and
Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Life and Wisdom, has granted him the best blessings, i.e. a happy,
prosperous and holy life through all Eternity. Even those who have opposed him have learnt to pay
him reverence and follow the good religion in every word and action.
Verse 2:
So, let all strive with thought, word and deed to satisfy Mazda. Let each one choose to perform good
deeds as his worship. Kavi Vishtaspa, the faithful devotee of Zoroaster together with Maidyo-Mah
and Frashaoshtra are treading the path of Truth and have chosen the Faith inspired and revealed by
the Saoshyant (1), or the Savior of Mankind, taught by Ahura.

And how is THAT anything like the Christian concept of salvation? Let me guess, because it uses the words eternity and saviour? ....

Regarding Mithra salvation vs. Christian salvation:

1) The radical difference, Mithra sacrificed a bull...while Christ sacrificed Himself.

2) Mithra is mediator originally only in a cosmogonic or astronomical sense... while Christ being God and human in nature, is by nature the Mediator between God and man.

3) On incarnation, Mithra was an abstraction, a personification not even of the sun but of the diffused daylight. Mithra's incarnation, if it can be called that, was supposed to have happened before the creation of the human race, before all history. ... while Christ breaks into human history with an historical personage, recently born in a well-known town of Judea, and crucified under a Roman governor, whose name figured in the ordinary official lists.

4) On destiny, Mithraic congregations were like masonic lodges for a few and for men only and even those mostly of one class, the military; a religion that excludes women, which makes up half of the human race bears no comparison to the religion of Christ which embrace all of humanity into the knowledge of Christ and salvation.

[TMMaria]

The path to eternal life under the first covenant was to never sin (ie behavior). However, there was a fault in the first testament in that all mankind sinned! Therefore, no one could gain eternal life under the first covenant. Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second or New Testament:

Perhaps, you have chosen to ignore the difference between a law (and the penalty for breaking the law) and God's first covenant with Adam, representative of mankind.

There was childlike Adam, excited and thrilled at being alive and ready for new discoveries, who was shown around the Garden and had rules explained to him. There was a law and God clearly lay out the penalty...do not do "what you're not suppose to do" or death is the consequence. Adam knew the law but broke the law...and God who does not lie, allow the death penalty to pass upon all of humanity.

However, while Satan watch on gleeful in being able to destroy God's works and enslaved God's beloved creature made in God's image...God's first covenant to Adam and Eve is a promise of a Redeemer for a fallen mankind. The Redeemer shall be an offspring of human kind who will destroy the works of the devil: "He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

Yes, there shall be Redeemer, who but God's Son Himself...to undo the devil's works...and the destiny of mankind in the hands of the Mediator, a new Adam....new Eve... new Jerusalem.

[TMMaria]

Due to their rebellion and neglecting their assignment, the good earth as originally created in Genesis 1:1 had reached a state of no form, void, and dark:

I don't believe the angels who rebelled ever were assigned stewardship of the earth...rather, it was Adam who had dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth. The angels' rebellion did not reach earth until Adam allowed sin to enter the world when he disobeyed his Father's law...the rebellious angels took dominion of the earth through deceit and enslaving representative of mankind into sins. You see, while God respect and observe man's freewill and choicemaking...rebellious angels are not quite that good at giving respect for freewill. For mankind, the enslavement by sins means they no longer have access to God's strength. One cannot serve two masters, as it is said.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth... (Genesis 1:28)

Replenish indicates to make full or complete a second time!

Adam's offspring shall be fruitful, multiply, but they shall all die once. Second time at life, as you call it, would happen all thanks to a new Adam...the Mediator, mankind's Redeemer...Jesus Christ, Himself.

[Zzyzx]

.

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth.

I question the existence and location of a high mountain from which "all kingdoms of he world" can be seen -- noting that a sphere cannot be seen in its entirety from ANY point (particularly one on its surface). The "devil" and the "god" must have thought the Earth was flat.

Since that part of the story is obviously false (no such mountain exists on the sphere), there is no reason to regard the rest of the tale as being true.

Once God makes a covenant, or testament, or promise, He always keeps it.

OH? Are there any exceptions to this claim in the bible?

If there are exceptions in bible stories that indicate that "god" may not keep his word, then there is no reason to build the whole "Lucifer in charge of Earth" story around the "god never changes his mind or his agreements" argument.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth... (Revelation 12:4)

"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation. Actually, it was a third of the angels of heaven. Some or all of these rebellious angels are now in hell awaiting judgment:

Great emphasis and precision is given the "third of the angels" that were supposedly "thrown down from heaven". However, that number is one that was simply made up by a pope:

In 1273, Pope John XXI, then Bishop of Tusculum, estimated that the total number of angels who sided with Lucifer's revolt numbered 133,306,668, which would suggest that they were fighting against a force of 266,613,336 angels who remained loyal to God.[13] This number was later affirmed by 15th-century scholar Alphonso de Spina.[14] In going through the opinions on the number of fallen angels, [15] theologian John Gill shows no awareness of the existence of this very precise idea of their number (bringing the total of angels in existence to 399,920,004 i.e. 79,996 short of 400 million), which a book by R. N. Leonard Ashley and a number of websites attribute to two famous figures, one of the thirteenth, the other of the fifteenth century, without indicating in what writings they made the statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth... (Genesis 1:28)

Replenish indicates to make full or complete a second time!

Correction: Replenish is defined by Merriam Webster Dictionary as "to fill or build up again". There is NO indication of a "second time" (or a third or tenth) – only that something which had existed previously has been rebuilt or refilled (number of times not specified).

Is it convenient to change the definition of words to make the story sound better?

[Flail]

This is the age old choice.....work and toil,question and struggle...search and search...strive within humanity...forged by adversity...live your life...use your mind.

or

take the easy peace as laid out by Paul and the business model of the church....buy a membership...bury your head in ritual and dogma....and surround yourself with the deception of selfish righteousness....chant and plead...kneel and beg...or do drugs

[myth-one.com]

Second time at life, as you call it, would happen all thanks to a new Adam...the Mediator, mankind's Redeemer...Jesus Christ, Himself.

But it was the new beings Adam & Eve (ie mankind) who was given dominion over and commanded to "replenish" the earth. Jesus would eventually be part of this as He was a human. And for mankind to be able to replenish the earth, it had to have become somehow "undone" previously. This occurred between the first two chapters of the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

Whenever the beginning was, God completely created the heaven and the earth at that time. Verse two then describes that creation as formless, void, and dark. How can that be? In Genesis 1:31, God proclaims everything He made to be good:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31)

Look at the New International Version® of Genesis 1:1-2:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty; darkness was over the surface of the deep... (Genesis 1:1-2)

That is, God originally created the heavens and the earth good in verse one, and over a period of time the earth had become formless, void, and dark. Between verse one and verse two a period of time obviously occurred. Based on current scientific estimates, the time period between verses one and two was approximately 4.55 billion years. The following "creation" described in detail in Genesis is actually a recreation of a decimated earth originally created good in verse one. This recreation that can be traced back to approximately 6,000 years ago. This idea that the creation described in detail beginning in Genesis 1:3 is actually a recreation of a decimated earth is supported by other scripture verses:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they (mankind) are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:30)

After God originally created the heavens and earth in the beginning, He did not abandon it to its own fate. He placed a caretaker and a host of angelic subordinates to care for the earth. Their sinning by rebelling against God, caused the good earth as originally created to reach the state of no form, void, and darkness in verse two!

Correction: Replenish is defined by Merriam Webster Dictionary as "to fill or build up again". There is NO indication of a "second time" (or a third or tenth) – only that something which had existed previously has been rebuilt or refilled (number of times not specified).

Is it convenient to change the definition of words to make the story sound better?

I'm good with "to fill or build up again." That would cover at least a second time which is described in the scriptures. The important word is again. My admittedly old Random House College Dictionary defines replenish (on page 1119) as follows:

replenish: To make full or complete again.

[McCulloch]

Myth-one has asserted that there is a long period of time implied between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and further that science estimates that this period of time is on the order of 4.55 billion years.

[mrow]Version[mcol]Genesis 1:1-2 [mcol]Footnotes [row]New American Standard Bible (NASB)[col]In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was [1]formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was [2]moving over the surface of the waters.[col]1. Or a waste and emptiness 2. Or hovering[row]New International Version (NIV)[col]In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.[col]1. Or possibly became[row]King James Version (KJV)[col]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.[row]English Standard Version (ESV)[col]In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.[row]Young's Literal Translation (YLT)[col]In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth -- the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,[row]The Message (MSG)[col]First this: God created the Heavens and Earth—all you see, all you don't see. Earth was a soup of nothingness, a bottomless emptiness, an inky blackness. God's Spirit brooded like a bird above the watery abyss.[row]Amplified Bible (AMP)[col]IN THE beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.[row]Darby Translation (DARBY)[col]In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

I don't see how you can make quite so much out of the word now inserted by the translators of the NIV. A common sense reading of this text would not see or imply a huge temporal gap between verses 1 and 2. It seems more likely that the authors had God create order and perfection from disorder and chaos. Hence all being very good by v31. Of course it was formless and dark in v2, light did not get created until the next few verses.

God originally created the heavens and the earth good in verse one, and over a period of time the earth had become formless, void, and dark. Between verse one and verse two a period of time obviously occurred. Based on current scientific estimates, the time period between verses one and two was approximately 4.55 billion years.

Science makes no such pronouncements. Really! Science has absolutely nothing to say about an original heaven and earth that somehow became formless and void prior to God's intervention about 6,000 years ago.

Myth-one then proceeds to rip Psalm 104:30 out of context to attempt to support such odd hypotheses. In context, this Psalm would be understood as God's renewing of the soil, necessary for every agricultural society.

After God originally created the heavens and earth in the beginning, He did not abandon it to its own fate. He placed a caretaker and a host of angelic subordinates to care for the earth. Their sinning by rebelling against God, caused the good earth as originally created to reach the state of no form, void, and darkness in verse two!

I would really like to see some form of evidence to support this wild idea.

[TheoCurious]

There was childlike Adam, excited and thrilled at being alive and ready for new discoveries, who was shown around the Garden and had rules explained to him. There was a law and God clearly lay out the penalty...do not do "what you're not suppose to do" or death is the consequence. Adam knew the law but broke the law...and God who does not lie, allow the death penalty to pass upon all of humanity.

Can someone tell me please WHY God would want to punish Adam with death if he broke the rules? What possible reason could God have for being so unforgiving and harsh? It's just plain mean! It would be like if you bought a puppy and then killed it the first time it peed on the carpet. I would call the cops on anyone who killed a puppy like that, and yet we are supposed to WORSHIP this God who kills a man just for making a dumb mistake?

No thanks, I'll stick with atheism.

"God does not lie." Well Hooray for God. He doesn't lie, but HE KILLS PEOPLE FOR MAKING A MISTAKE.

[Confused]

As interesting as the posts in this thread are, the first few posters made it perfectly clear that there isn't any specific topic to debate here and the topics that are ongoing vary.

If RyanP wishes to declare a specific topic for debate, I think the thread would likely belong in the Theology forum depending on what he wishes to debate in regards to the specific scripture he quotes.

Until then, I am going to move this to the Discussion area in General Chat. I will be happy to move it elsewhere when a clear topic for debate is stated.