Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

When reaching through the eras of reform
Let your essential nature be your guide —
There’s no hope of salvation otherwise.

Hey there folks. I figured I’d gone long overdue for an introductory thread of my own. And so without further ado…

I grew up in a muslim household and community. Although I loved the idea of worship and the way some people can use it to better their lives, the Islamic lifestyle as prevalent in the community in which I live, the whole (Jewish–derived, I suppose) notion of exegetical analysis of sacred texts, and so on, I grew to realise I didn’t believe in God — or at least as depicted in any religion I’ve studied.

I have read too much and have too much scientific study under my belt to believe in divinity (except perhaps something similar to Aristotle’s views on a completely unresponsive God that created everything through emanation, though less theistic, much less theistic!). I’d like a God to exist, one that doesn’t demand we worship Him in formal ways (as opposed to free worship of the heart), but I’ve never really felt Him or His presence. I’ve slowly come to realise that I simply don’t believe. Not believe as such — I simply don’t care. My living means that God doesn’t really enter my active life (though I think about religion a lot). But I do harbour deep and underlying fears of punishment after death, though if I think about it more rationally I don’t think I believe in life after death.

I’ve studied Middle Eastern religions a lot, and I see all the monotheistic religions as a gradual — and sometimes sudden — break from the old paganistic ways. I see the human evolution of religion too much to give it spiritual credence.

But because of my upbringing, and love for my family and community, I feel compelled to defend their way of life — despite not agreeing with it — especially when outsiders viciously attack them, verbally or physically. It disappoints me that those who depart from Islam then turn to attack it with such viciousness, the Western media then purverying them as experts on the whole culture and religion.

[bernee51]

How do you know this? Can a universe that is 'not like ours' come from nothing?

An imaginary universe could, I suppose.

So why then is it a necessity that a universe like ours not have come from nothing? Thre are other possibilities.

Can you answer the question "Who am I?"

I am who God says I am.

Who god says you are is an object in your awareness. It does not answer the question "Who am I?"

If I was god I would want for nothing. Your scenario is meaningless from a godly POV.

You would never need anyone to talk to, anyone to care about?

If I was perfect in every way I would want for nothing. The two go hand in hand. To want for something necessitates a perceived lack of something.

Which Indian religions? And what was that 'something'?

Hinduism, Buddhism, Prabhupada Hare Krisna. Their gods were cold and uncaring.

Ganesh is pretty friendly. Buddhism has no god. I can see why the blue colour of Krishna would be seen as cold. That said - have you studied his conversations with Arjuna. It represents some of the most profound philosophy to come from the mind of man. A full guide to a realization of the nature of being. Surely in your 'investigations' of Indian religion you read the Bhagavad Gita?

I am a father...I don't see any sacrifice knowing he would come back to life in three days.

Jesus had to be punished for our sins, and he was punished more severely than we will ever comprehend, it was not an overzealous Dental visit.

He supposedly knew his fate...i.e. to rise again. Hardly a sacrifice regardless of the alleged torture.

I know that you will find what you are looking for,...

But will you?

I have found all that a man needs to find, that Jesus is Lord.

Then you are short changing yourself, IMHO.

God has blessed me with his absence.

I can't imagine how anyone can endure such a condition.

It is not endured - it is rejoiced,

[olavisjo]

This is the sum total of who you are?

I am a son of God, this is a pretty big sum total.

A perfect being does not 'need' anything. This would make it imperfect.

If I admit that I need your love, I don't feel any less perfect, but to the contrary, it makes me feel closer to the heart of God. But you may change the word need to desire or want.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but you're not claiming to be a perfect being, are you. Or are you? My argument is not that needing someone's love makes you imperfect. It is rather that a perfect being would want, need or desire nothing. If God wants, needs or desires something, he's not perfect either.

It does sound like I am claiming to be perfect here, but that was not the intent.
The statement, however, is true as it stands. My level of perfection (zero) before I admitted my need for your love was the same as after (zero).
And you are saying God is not perfect, because he needs your love. The need to love and be loved are two sides of the same coin, you can't have one without the other. God is love. That is what makes him perfect.

Unlike the Christian one who intervenes in our lives all the time to prevent...oh, I don't know...cruelty to children, yes?

Don't confuse Gods patience with evil men, as "cold and uncaring".

Oh I see. God's just being patient. While children are being abused and neglected, we can be comforted by the fact that God is patient.

No, we can't be comforted by that. If we know of any such children, we must take action, there is a lot we can do for that situation. The Bible says that it is better for a man to have a millstone tied around his neck, than to harm one of these little ones. I am trying to build a new world where things like that don't happen. Humanism has failed to bring this world, and science has failed, governments have failed, and mostly religion has failed.

I don't see that as the same at all. Seeing as Jesus was God in the story of the crucifiction and resurrection, he knew all along what was to come. You believe you know, but obviously until you get there you can't be sure.

This is where I part company with many christian religions, especially the Roman Catholic church, Jesus was a man. When he spoke, he spoke by the Holy Spirit just as a man today can, but he did not know how his life would end from a godly point of view, he new it from a mans point of view. He did not have any power in him that any man alive today does not have. In your case woman.

It is not at all certain that there will come a day when I need God. Elsewhere on this forum I have described a time when I was very close to death. I did not need him, I did not ask for him then and he did not show himself or communicate in any way. In fact he did not even cross my mind.

He is speaking to you now. Don't be so surprised that he can speak through the mouth of a donkey.

28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

[olavisjo]

So why then is it a necessity that a universe like ours not have come from nothing? There are other possibilities.

Please talk to me about those possibilities, if you need to use calculus, please type very slowly.

Who god says you are is an object in your awareness. It does not answer the question "Who am I?"

God says that I am his son.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

If I was perfect in every way I would want for nothing. The two go hand in hand. To want for something necessitates a perceived lack of something.

If you never want anything, you will lack emotion. God is an emotional kind of guy, and yet he is still perfect.

Ganesh is pretty friendly. Buddhism has no god. I can see why the blue colour of Krishna would be seen as cold. That said - have you studied his conversations with Arjuna. It represents some of the most profound philosophy to come from the mind of man. A full guide to a realization of the nature of being. Surely in your 'investigations' of Indian religion you read the Bhagavad Gita?

I have to confess that my investigation of those religions was very slack, I do not enjoy reading difficult material, that is why I like Jesus, his way is a doing thing more than a studying thing.

I have found all that a man needs to find, that Jesus is Lord.

Then you are short changing yourself, IMHO.

Living forever with God in paradise, I can settle with that.

God has blessed me with his absence.

I can't imagine how anyone can endure such a condition.

It is not endured - it is rejoiced,

What can I do to change that?

[McCulloch]

God says that I am his son.

No, the writers of the Bible claim that you are God's son by faith. It has not been established that the writers of the Bible were actually truthfully speaking for God.

[bernee51]

So why then is it a necessity that a universe like ours not have come from nothing? There are other possibilities.

Please talk to me about those possibilities, if you need to use calculus, please type very slowly.

No need for calculus...I just consider the possibility that the universe, in some shape or form, is eternal. there is as much evidence of this as there is for the existence of an eternal creator deity.

t;]Who god says you are is an object in your awareness. It does not answer the question "Who am I?"

God says that I am his son.

That stil does not answer the question "Who am I". If you feel you can't or don't want to just say so.

If you never want anything, you will lack emotion. God is an emotional kind of guy, and yet he is still perfect.

God has emotions? Then god is not perfect.

Ganesh is pretty friendly. Buddhism has no god. I can see why the blue colour of Krishna would be seen as cold. That said - have you studied his conversations with Arjuna. It represents some of the most profound philosophy to come from the mind of man. A full guide to a realization of the nature of being. Surely in your 'investigations' of Indian religion you read the Bhagavad Gita?

I have to confess that my investigation of those religions was very slack, I do not enjoy reading difficult material, that is why I like Jesus, his way is a doing thing more than a studying thing.

Then don't claim knowledge of same - it is dishonest. I dishonesty part of this god's will you claim to follow?

The lessons in the BG are very much about action.

t;]

I have found all that a man needs to find, that Jesus is Lord.

Then you are short changing yourself, IMHO.

Living forever with God in paradise, I can settle with that.

I could not.

God has blessed me with his absence.

I can't imagine how anyone can endure such a condition.

It is not endured - it is rejoiced,

What can I do to change that?

Show me why living within an illusion is better than freedom.

[olavisjo]

No need for calculus...I just consider the possibility that the universe, in some shape or form, is eternal. there is as much evidence of this as there is for the existence of an eternal creator deity.

No, fifty years ago that was what science said, but today evidence from the Hubble telescope and microwave background has concluded that God created the universe 13.7+-.2 billion years ago.

Who god says you are is an object in your awareness. It does not answer the question "Who am I?"

God says that I am his son.

That still does not answer the question "Who am I". If you feel you can't or don't want to just say so.

What more can I say? Do you want my name, phone and social security number?

If you never want anything, you will lack emotion. God is an emotional kind of guy, and yet he is still perfect.

God has emotions? Then god is not perfect.

Now we are getting somewhere. Why would you feel that emotions makes someone less than perfect?

Then don't claim knowledge of same - it is dishonest. I dishonesty part of this god's will you claim to follow?

The lessons in the BG are very much about action.

I did not get very far in the Bhagavad Gita, can you tell me a little of what I missed?

Living forever with God in paradise, I can settle with that.

I could not.

What more do you want?

Show me why living within an illusion is better than freedom.

Freedom is an illusion, you will always be in bondage to your needs for food, clothing, shelter, air to breath, love. But if you give yourself to be a servant of God his promise is to always provide for your needs and you will be free.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed..

[olavisjo]

God says that I am his son.

No, the writers of the Bible claim that you are God's son by faith. It has not been established that the writers of the Bible were actually truthfully speaking for God.

You may add me to the list of witnesses that assert their claim as being true.

[Fallibleone]

Apologies for jumping in.

No need for calculus...I just consider the possibility that the universe, in some shape or form, is eternal. there is as much evidence of this as there is for the existence of an eternal creator deity.

No, fifty years ago that was what science said, but today evidence from the Hubble telescope and microwave background has concluded that God created the universe 13.7+-.2 billion years ago.

No, it has not. It has concluded nothing whatsoever to do with God's creation of the universe.

Who god says you are is an object in your awareness. It does not answer the question "Who am I?"

God says that I am his son.

That still does not answer the question "Who am I". If you feel you can't or don't want to just say so.

What more can I say? Do you want my name, phone and social security number?

In some circles, a person who derives a sense of self entirely from an external locus of evaluation is thought to be at a considerable disadvantage when answering the question 'Who am I?'

If you never want anything, you will lack emotion. God is an emotional kind of guy, and yet he is still perfect.

God has emotions? Then god is not perfect.

Now we are getting somewhere. Why would you feel that emotions makes someone less than perfect?

I do not believe that this is the point at all. We are discussing a supposedly perfect being here, not 'mere' humans. As I said before, the argument is not that emotions make people less than perfect. It is that God, being perfect, would not want, need or desire anything, or indeed be affected by external events causing him to emote.

Show me why living within an illusion is better than freedom.

Freedom is an illusion, you will always be in bondage to your needs for food, clothing, shelter, air to breath, love. But if you give yourself to be a servant of God his promise is to always provide for your needs and you will be free.

Have you given away all that you own? God will provide for your needs. Or are your job, home and car God's way of providing for you?

[Goat]

No need for calculus...I just consider the possibility that the universe, in some shape or form, is eternal. there is as much evidence of this as there is for the existence of an eternal creator deity.

No, fifty years ago that was what science said, but today evidence from the Hubble telescope and microwave background has concluded that God created the universe 13.7+-.2 billion years ago.
]

To be more precise, science estimates that the inflationary period known at the 'big bang' happened 13.7 +-.2 billion years ago. That is different that saying science said that God created the universe at that time. Science does not make a declaration about God one way or the other.

[McCulloch]

Why would you feel that emotions makes someone less than perfect?

Let's look at anger. You might get angry with someone for doing something that hurts you. However, if you more fully understood the circumstances of the person who did such a thing, your anger might be less fierce. If you perfectly understood all of the motivations, the life and the struggles of that person, you would not be angry at all.

Perfection precludes emotion.