Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

Mehmet Akif Ersoy wrote:When reaching through the eras of reform
Let your essential nature be your guide —
There’s no hope of salvation otherwise.
Hey there folks. I figured I’d gone long overdue for an introductory thread of my own. And so without further ado…

I grew up in a muslim household and community. Although I loved the idea of worship and the way some people can use it to better their lives, the Islamic lifestyle as prevalent in the community in which I live, the whole (Jewish–derived, I suppose) notion of exegetical analysis of sacred texts, and so on, I grew to realise I didn’t believe in God — or at least as depicted in any religion I’ve studied.

I have read too much and have too much scientific study under my belt to believe in divinity (except perhaps something similar to Aristotle’s views on a completely unresponsive God that created everything through emanation, though less theistic, much less theistic!). I’d like a God to exist, one that doesn’t demand we worship Him in formal ways (as opposed to free worship of the heart), but I’ve never really felt Him or His presence. I’ve slowly come to realise that I simply don’t believe. Not believe as such — I simply don’t care. My living means that God doesn’t really enter my active life (though I think about religion a lot). But I do harbour deep and underlying fears of punishment after death, though if I think about it more rationally I don’t think I believe in life after death.

I’ve studied Middle Eastern religions a lot, and I see all the monotheistic religions as a gradual — and sometimes sudden — break from the old paganistic ways. I see the human evolution of religion too much to give it spiritual credence.

But because of my upbringing, and love for my family and community, I feel compelled to defend their way of life — despite not agreeing with it — especially when outsiders viciously attack them, verbally or physically. It disappoints me that those who depart from Islam then turn to attack it with such viciousness, the Western media then purverying them as experts on the whole culture and religion.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #51

Post by Zzyzx »

.
olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: I see from this response you have not yet approached the question "Who am I?"
[various biblical quotations]

Your turn, how do you approach the question?
Olavisjo,

Your response above seems to focus upon you as a religious concept. Are you, yourself, ANYTHING aside from your religion?
.
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bernee51
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #52

Post by bernee51 »

olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: I see from this response you have not yet approached the question "Who am I?"
Matt. 5:13 I am the salt of the earth.
Matt.5:14 I am the light of the world.
John 1:12 I am a child of God (part of his family). (see Rom. 8:16)
John 15:1-5 I am part of the true vine, a channel (branch) of Christ's life.
John 15:15 I am Christ's friend.
John 15:16 I am choosen and appointed by Christ to bear his fruit.
Rom. 6:18 I am a slave of righteousness.
Rom. 6:22 I am enslaved to God.
Rom. 8:14-15 I am a son of God (God is spiritually my father). (See Gal. 3:26 and 4:6)
Rom. 8:17 I am a joint-heir with Christ, sharing his inheritance with him.
1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19 I am a temple (home) of God. His Spirit (his life) dwells in me.
1 Cor. 6:17 I am joined (united) to the Lord and am one spirit with him.
1 Cor. 12:27 I am a member (part) of Christ's body. (see Eph. 5:30)
2 Cor. 5:17 I am a new creation (new person).
2 Cor. 5:18-19 I am reconciled to God and am a minister of reconciliation.
Gal. 3:26-28 I am a son of God and one in Christ.
Gal. 4:6-7 I am an heir of God since I am a son of God.
Eph. 1:1 I am a saint. (See 1 Cor 1:2; Phil. 1:1; and Col 1:2)
Eph. 2:10 I am God's workmanship (handiwork) created (born anew) in Christ to do his work that he planned beforehand thet I should do.
Eph. 2:19 I am a fellow citizen with the rest of God's people in his family.
Eph. 3:1 and 4:1 I am a prisoner of Christ.
Eph. 4:24 I am righteous and holy.
Phil. 3:20 I am a citizen of heaven and seated in heaven right now (see Eph. 2:6).
Col. 3:3 I am hidden with Christ in God.
Col. 3:4 I am an expression of the life of Christ becase he is my life.
Col. 3:12 I am chosen of God, holy, and dearly loved.
1 Thes. 1:4 I am chosen and dearly loved by God.
1 Thes. 5:5 I am a son of light and not of darkness.
Heb. 3:1 I am a holy brother, partaker of a heavenly calling.
Heb. 3:14 I am a partaker of Christ...I share in his life.
1 Pet. 2:5 I am one of God's living stones and am built up (in Christ) as a spiritual house.
1 Pet. 2:9-10 I am a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession to proclaim the excellence of him.
1 Pet. 2:11 I am an alien and stranger to this world I temporarily live in.
1 Pet. 5:8 I am an enemy of the devil.
1 John 3:1-2 I am now a child of God. I will resemle Christ when he returns.
1 John 5:18 I am born of God and the evil one (the devil) cannot touch me.

I am not the great "I AM" (Ex. 3:14; Jn. 8:24,28,58), "but by the grace of God I am what I am." (1 Cor. 15:10)

[center]© 1990 Freedom in Christ Ministries[/center]


Your turn, how do you approach the question?
A very good question and I thank you for asking...

let's look at the first of your first "I am...". There is no need to look at the others as they all follow the same form.

"I am the salt of the earth".

This follows a form of "Subject, verb, object" or "Seer, act of seeing, object seen" or "Witness, act of witnessing, object being witnessed". You may understand from this that 'my approach' is to identify the seer, not that being seen. Everything that you describe as being your "I am" is in fact an object in your awareness and thus not, in reality, the "I". The identification with what one is not is, my friend, a link it the chain that binds us to the cause of suffering.

Your last "I am" is in fact the realization that must be made. This is the freedom of which I speak.

Rumi, a great Sufi mystic and poet, related a small story which illustrates the true nature of being.

I came to the door of the Beloved and knocked. "Who is there?" was asked from within. I replied "It is I". The door remained closed. A second time I came and knocked. Again came "Who is there?". Again I answered "It is I" and still the door remained closed. A third time I came and knocked and a third time the question "Who is there?" I replied "Beloved, I am thou" and the door swung open.

May you be happy, kind, loving and peaceful.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #53

Post by olavisjo »

Zzyzx wrote:.
olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: I see from this response you have not yet approached the question "Who am I?"
[various biblical quotations]

Your turn, how do you approach the question?
Olavisjo,

Your response above seems to focus upon you as a religious concept. Are you, yourself, ANYTHING aside from your religion?
Yes, I am, but I try my best to not to be.
I want to be transformed into the same thing that Jesus was, anything in me that is not like Jesus, needs to be jettisoned. This is my sincere desire, not an obligation.
1 John 3:2 wrote: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #54

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

olavisjo wrote:anything in me that is not like Jesus, needs to be jettisoned.
What about the quality Jesus had where he didn’t know the difference in climes between the more tropical Galilee and the harsher, more desert–like Jerusalem?
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #55

Post by Zzyzx »

olavisjo wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:Your response above seems to focus upon you as a religious concept. Are you, yourself, ANYTHING aside from your religion?
Yes, I am, but I try my best to not to be.

I want to be transformed into the same thing that Jesus was, anything in me that is not like Jesus, needs to be jettisoned. This is my sincere desire, not an obligation.
I complement dedication to ideals . . . . .

What do you seek to gain from debate with Non-Theists?
.
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #56

Post by bernee51 »

olavisjo wrote: I want to be transformed into the same thing that Jesus was, anything in me that is not like Jesus, needs to be jettisoned. This is my sincere desire, not an obligation.
It is also not a transformation, it is a realization. All you need jettison is the object side of "I am..."
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #57

Post by olavisjo »

Zzyzx wrote: I complement dedication to ideals . . . . .
You have 2,397 posts in this forum, that is dedication.
Zzyzx wrote: What do you seek to gain from debate with Non-Theists?
I should be asking you that question, as this is Debating Christianity & Religion not Debating Non-Theists.
I ultimately seek your conversion and salvation, but I realize that it is not in my power to do so. So all that I can do is plant seeds and somebody else will water and fertilize the seeds but only God can make the seeds grow into big trees.
I am going to heaven, and when I get there I want to see all of you there.

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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #58

Post by Zzyzx »

.
olavisjo wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:I complement dedication to ideals . . . . .
You have 2,397 posts in this forum, that is dedication.
I have an interest in opposing the proselytization of beliefs in invisible super beings and supernaturalism that cannot be shown to be valid or verifiable. I have no interest in anyone’s personal and private beliefs, but DO oppose attempts to publicly promote and profit from issues that cannot be demonstrated to be valid.
olavisjo wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:What do you seek to gain from debate with Non-Theists?
I should be asking you that question, as this is Debating Christianity & Religion not Debating Non-Theists.
Perhaps you have overlooked the forum subtitles that appear at the top of each page and which include:
Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views
A civil debate forum for people of all persuasions (Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, Christians, and adherents of any religion)
The pursuit of knowledge and truth, through God, through science, through civil and engaging debate
Pressing matters of the day and of all time, debated among thoughtful participants of all faiths
Some Theists appear eager to take possession of that which is not theirs such as history, morals, advancement of knowledge AND Internet forums.
olavisjo wrote:I ultimately seek your conversion and salvation,
Thank you for being honest – though misguided. I need and seek NO “salvation” from threats of “hell” in an “afterlife” that cannot be shown to be anything more than a myth created by religionists to further their interests.

The “problem” (need for “salvation”) and the “solution” (worshiping deities) are BOTH provided by religion. The offered “solution” costs nothing to promise and the promise comes due, conveniently, when the person is dead.
olavisjo wrote:but I realize that it is not in my power to do so.
Thank you for being somewhat realistic.
olavisjo wrote:So all that I can do is plant seeds and somebody else will water and fertilize the seeds but only God can make the seeds grow into big trees.
That is one world-view. There are others.
olavisjo wrote:I am going to heaven, and when I get there I want to see all of you there.
Thanks for the expression of good will.

I wish you well in this life.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #59

Post by olavisjo »

Zzyzx wrote: I wish you well in this life.
Thank you.
I did not mean to take possession of this site, I was just wondering if maybe you were so active in opposing Christians, not just to help this deluded group find the truth and prevent them from spreading their message to others, but you wanted them to convince you that they were right and that a man can escape death.
I am going to use the Internet to spread the gospel of the kingdom throughout the world because it is written...
Matthew 24:14 wrote:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
You oppose God because you can’t find scientific proof of his existence, yet if he does exist that is exactly how you would expect it to be, God would exist outside the universe that he created and far beyond our laboratories ability to detect him.
A prudent man would assume that God exists and try to devise a way to know him.
So which of the thousands of gods, if any, is right? Which of the thousands of religions and religious books is right? Is it right to say “it is too hard to search through all that material, therefore God does not exist”? Who told you that it has to be easy to find God? Who told you that the scientific method is the only way to know truth? When Jesus questioned Peter as to who he was, Jesus told him that he knew the answer because God had revealed it to him.
Matthew 16:15-17 wrote:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
There was a man, very much like you, who zealously opposed the spread of Christianity to the point of killing them, and when Paul was converted he became the greatest evangelist the world has ever known. This is my hope for you that you will become another Paul.

I wish you well in this life and the next.

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