Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

Mehmet Akif Ersoy wrote:When reaching through the eras of reform
Let your essential nature be your guide —
There’s no hope of salvation otherwise.
Hey there folks. I figured I’d gone long overdue for an introductory thread of my own. And so without further ado…

I grew up in a muslim household and community. Although I loved the idea of worship and the way some people can use it to better their lives, the Islamic lifestyle as prevalent in the community in which I live, the whole (Jewish–derived, I suppose) notion of exegetical analysis of sacred texts, and so on, I grew to realise I didn’t believe in God — or at least as depicted in any religion I’ve studied.

I have read too much and have too much scientific study under my belt to believe in divinity (except perhaps something similar to Aristotle’s views on a completely unresponsive God that created everything through emanation, though less theistic, much less theistic!). I’d like a God to exist, one that doesn’t demand we worship Him in formal ways (as opposed to free worship of the heart), but I’ve never really felt Him or His presence. I’ve slowly come to realise that I simply don’t believe. Not believe as such — I simply don’t care. My living means that God doesn’t really enter my active life (though I think about religion a lot). But I do harbour deep and underlying fears of punishment after death, though if I think about it more rationally I don’t think I believe in life after death.

I’ve studied Middle Eastern religions a lot, and I see all the monotheistic religions as a gradual — and sometimes sudden — break from the old paganistic ways. I see the human evolution of religion too much to give it spiritual credence.

But because of my upbringing, and love for my family and community, I feel compelled to defend their way of life — despite not agreeing with it — especially when outsiders viciously attack them, verbally or physically. It disappoints me that those who depart from Islam then turn to attack it with such viciousness, the Western media then purverying them as experts on the whole culture and religion.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

olavisjo
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #2

Post by olavisjo »

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote: Hey there folks. I figured I’d gone long overdue for an introductory thread of my own. And so without further ado…
Where did you want this thread to go?
You know that there is a God, a universe like ours can't come from nothing.
Just go look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, "is there someone in there, or am I just an illusion of a person formed from the base elements of a random cosmos?"
Then ask yourself "if I was God, why would I create such people like me, what would I want from them, how would I reveal myself to them?"
I had the misfortune of being born into the Christian religion so I grew up 'knowing' that was not the way God would communicate with me, so I went east to the Indian religions and found that they were missing something.
I reluctantly came back to Christianity because it is the only religion where God gave his son to die for my transgressions. If you are a father, you can appreciate the sacrifice.
I know that you will find what you are looking for, you just need to let God find you and give in to him. Surrender. God bless you.

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upallnite
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Post #3

Post by upallnite »

Pazuzu,

I guess it is about time I said welcome. I spent a year in Iraq and Kuait. I did not get to socialize with the people very often. But I did notice some things about the culture I did not like. I did like messing with their heads by telling them I do not belive in the Christian God. Many of them thought the US military was a Christian military.

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Post #4

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

upallnite wrote:I did notice some things about the culture I did not like.
What sort of things?

And I commend you for the mindfuckery you perpetrated — hopefully it helped to raise their consciousness a little bit ;).
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

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bernee51
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #5

Post by bernee51 »

olavisjo wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote: Hey there folks. I figured I’d gone long overdue for an introductory thread of my own. And so without further ado…
Where did you want this thread to go?
It is not a thread per se - it is an introduction.

Hi Pazuzu :wave:
olavisjo wrote: You know that there is a God, a universe like ours can't come from nothing.
How do you know this? Can a universe that is 'not like ours' come from nothing?
olavisjo wrote: Just go look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, "is there someone in there, or am I just an illusion of a person formed from the base elements of a random cosmos?"
Can you answer the question "Who am I?"

A hint - reject all that you are not. i.e. anything that is an object in you awareness.
olavisjo wrote: Then ask yourself "if I was God, why would I create such people like me, what would I want from them, how would I reveal myself to them?"
If I was god I would want for nothing. Your scenario is meaningless from a godly POV.
olavisjo wrote: I had the misfortune of being born into the Christian religion so I grew up 'knowing' that was not the way God would communicate with me, so I went east to the Indian religions and found that they were missing something.
Which Indian religions? And what was that 'something'?
olavisjo wrote: I reluctantly came back to Christianity...
You have my condolences. 8-)
olavisjo wrote: ...because it is the only religion where God gave his son to die for my transgressions. you are a father, you can appreciate the sacrifice.
I am a father...I don't see any sacrifice knowing he would come back to life in three days.
olavisjo wrote: I know that you will find what you are looking for,...
But will you?
olavisjo wrote:... you just need to let God find you and give in to him. Surrender.
Why can't god find him without him 'letting' it happen?
olavisjo wrote: God bless you.
God has blessed me with his absence.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

olavisjo
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #6

Post by olavisjo »

bernee51 wrote: It is not a thread per se - it is an introduction.
Introductory thread? I missed that part somehow, strange concept, but why not?
bernee51 wrote: How do you know this? Can a universe that is 'not like ours' come from nothing?
An imaginary universe could, I suppose.
bernee51 wrote: Can you answer the question "Who am I?"
I am who God says I am.
bernee51 wrote: If I was god I would want for nothing. Your scenario is meaningless from a godly POV.
You would never need anyone to talk to, anyone to care about?
bernee51 wrote: Which Indian religions? And what was that 'something'?
Hinduism, Buddhism, Prabhupada Hare Krisna. Their gods were cold and uncaring.
bernee51 wrote: I am a father...I don't see any sacrifice knowing he would come back to life in three days.
Jesus had to be punished for our sins, and he was punished more severely than we will ever comprehend, it was not an overzealous Dental visit.
olavisjo wrote: I know that you will find what you are looking for,...
bernee51 wrote: But will you?
I have found all that a man needs to find, that Jesus is Lord.
bernee51 wrote: Why can't god find him without him 'letting' it happen?
God will not violate our sovranty.
bernee51 wrote: God has blessed me with his absence.
I can't imagine how anyone can endure such a condition.

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Fallibleone
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #7

Post by Fallibleone »

olavisjo wrote:
bernee51 wrote: It is not a thread per se - it is an introduction.
Introductory thread? I missed that part somehow, strange concept, but why not?
There are many introductory threads.
bernee51 wrote: Can you answer the question "Who am I?"
I am who God says I am.
Who does God say you are and how did he communicate it to you?
bernee51 wrote: If I was god I would want for nothing. Your scenario is meaningless from a godly POV.
You would never need anyone to talk to, anyone to care about?
A perfect being does not 'need' anything. This would make it imperfect.
bernee51 wrote: Which Indian religions? And what was that 'something'?
Hinduism, Buddhism, Prabhupada Hare Krisna. Their gods were cold and uncaring.
Unlike the Christian one who intervenes in our lives all the time to prevent...oh, I don't know...cruelty to children, yes?
bernee51 wrote: I am a father...I don't see any sacrifice knowing he would come back to life in three days.
Jesus had to be punished for our sins, and he was punished more severely than we will ever comprehend, it was not an overzealous Dental visit.
I've never understood this supposed sacrifice 'for our sins'. As Bernee said, he came back to life afterwards. You know, it's easier to grit your teeth and get through awful pain or discomfort if you know for a fact that it will end soon with no ill effects for you.
olavisjo wrote: I know that you will find what you are looking for,...
bernee51 wrote: But will you?
I have found all that a man needs to find, that Jesus is Lord.
You might have convinced yourself that you have found all you need to find. It still remains to be seen whether it will pan out as you expect.
bernee51 wrote: Why can't god find him without him 'letting' it happen?
God will not violate our sovranty.
Can you explain that please?
bernee51 wrote: God has blessed me with his absence.
I can't imagine how anyone can endure such a condition.
People can and do. I'm another one. It's great.
''''What I am is good enough if I can only be it openly.''''

''''The man said "why you think you here?" I said "I got no idea".''''

''''Je viens comme un chat
Par la nuit si noire.
Tu attends, et je tombe
Dans tes ailes blanches,
Et je vole,
Et je coule
Comme une plume.''''

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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #8

Post by olavisjo »

Fallibleone wrote: Who does God say you are and how did he communicate it to you?
He speaks to me mostly through the Bible. This is who he says I am, an adopted son.
Ephesians 1:3-8 wrote:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Fallibleone wrote: A perfect being does not 'need' anything. This would make it imperfect.
If I admit that I need your love, I don't feel any less perfect, but to the contrary, it makes me feel closer to the heart of God. But you may change the word need to desire or want.
Fallibleone wrote: Unlike the Christian one who intervenes in our lives all the time to prevent...oh, I don't know...cruelty to children, yes?
Don't confuse Gods patience with evil men, as "cold and uncaring".
Fallibleone wrote: I've never understood this supposed sacrifice 'for our sins'. As Bernee said, he came back to life afterwards. You know, it's easier to grit your teeth and get through awful pain or discomfort if you know for a fact that it will end soon with no ill effects for you.
You are not the only one who has not understood this. I think that it was the same for Jesus as it is for me, I may have convinced myself that I will survive my own death but...
Fallibleone wrote: You might have convinced yourself that you have found all you need to find. It still remains to be seen whether it will pan out as you expect.
Fallibleone wrote:
olavisjo wrote:God will not violate our sovranty.
Can you explain that please?
God gave us a free will, we can accept him or not. The unfortunate thing is that if we do not accept him in the here and now, we will not be able to after we die, because any doubt about his existence will be removed so accepting him at that point is only a selfish gesture, the one trait that God has no place for in his Kingdom. So God had to create a place for those people in that situation that is separate from his Kingdom.
Fallibleone wrote:
bernee51 wrote: God has blessed me with his absence.
I can't imagine how anyone can endure such a condition.
People can and do. I'm another one. It's great.
There will come a day when you need God, how will you find him then?

olavisjo (with Forrest Gump accent) wrote: Pazuzu bin Hanbi, I am sorry for what I have done to your introductory thread. Perhapse one of the moderators can get some of these posts moved to another thread?

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Fallibleone
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #9

Post by Fallibleone »

olavisjo wrote:
Fallibleone wrote: Who does God say you are and how did he communicate it to you?
He speaks to me mostly through the Bible. This is who he says I am, an adopted son.
Ephesians 1:3-8 wrote:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
This is the sum total of who you are?

Fallibleone wrote: A perfect being does not 'need' anything. This would make it imperfect.
If I admit that I need your love, I don't feel any less perfect, but to the contrary, it makes me feel closer to the heart of God. But you may change the word need to desire or want.
Please forgive me if I am wrong, but you're not claiming to be a perfect being, are you. Or are you? My argument is not that needing someone's love makes you imperfect. It is rather that a perfect being would want, need or desire nothing. If God wants, needs or desires something, he's not perfect either.
Fallibleone wrote: Unlike the Christian one who intervenes in our lives all the time to prevent...oh, I don't know...cruelty to children, yes?
Don't confuse Gods patience with evil men, as "cold and uncaring".
Oh I see. God's just being patient. While children are being abused and neglected, we can be comforted by the fact that God is patient.
Fallibleone wrote: I've never understood this supposed sacrifice 'for our sins'. As Bernee said, he came back to life afterwards. You know, it's easier to grit your teeth and get through awful pain or discomfort if you know for a fact that it will end soon with no ill effects for you.
You are not the only one who has not understood this. I think that it was the same for Jesus as it is for me, I may have convinced myself that I will survive my own death but...

I don't see that as the same at all. Seeing as Jesus was God in the story of the crucifiction and resurrection, he knew all along what was to come. You believe you know, but obviously until you get there you can't be sure.
Fallibleone wrote: You might have convinced yourself that you have found all you need to find. It still remains to be seen whether it will pan out as you expect.
Fallibleone wrote:
olavisjo wrote:God will not violate our sovranty.
Can you explain that please?
God gave us a free will, we can accept him or not. The unfortunate thing is that if we do not accept him in the here and now, we will not be able to after we die, because any doubt about his existence will be removed so accepting him at that point is only a selfish gesture, the one trait that God has no place for in his Kingdom. So God had to create a place for those people in that situation that is separate from his Kingdom.
Fallibleone wrote:
bernee51 wrote: God has blessed me with his absence.
I can't imagine how anyone can endure such a condition.
People can and do. I'm another one. It's great.
There will come a day when you need God, how will you find him then?
It is not at all certain that there will come a day when I need God. Elsewhere on this forum I have described a time when I was very close to death. I did not need him, I did not ask for him then and he did not show himself or communicate in any way. In fact he did not even cross my mind.
''''What I am is good enough if I can only be it openly.''''

''''The man said "why you think you here?" I said "I got no idea".''''

''''Je viens comme un chat
Par la nuit si noire.
Tu attends, et je tombe
Dans tes ailes blanches,
Et je vole,
Et je coule
Comme une plume.''''

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McCulloch
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Re: Reaching Through the Eras of Reform…

Post #10

Post by McCulloch »

Fallibleone wrote:I've never understood this supposed sacrifice 'for our sins'. As Bernee said, he came back to life afterwards. You know, it's easier to grit your teeth and get through awful pain or discomfort if you know for a fact that it will end soon with no ill effects for you.
olavisjo wrote:You are not the only one who has not understood this. I think that it was the same for Jesus as it is for me, I may have convinced myself that I will survive my own death but...
Please explain. Jesus infallibly predicted his own resurrection. Not to minimize his really bad weekend, but he knew that he was to be raised to the right hand of God. This is not what most of us mean by the ultimate sacrifice.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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