Are you a Good Person?

[servant]

Take the test if you dare:



http://www.livingwaters.com/good/

[cnorman18]

So...where is Hitler or Stalin?

One more time; what are the chances that Jews would become Christians when it has usually been Christians who were torturing and murdering them, and usually explicitly in the name of Christ?

I think Hitler had an anti-christ spirit. I think murdering others in the name of Christ is taking God's name in vain.

Very well put. Thanks.

[Zzyzx]

.
Hi Stmw,

Welcome to the forum.

I think murdering others in the name of Christ is taking God's name in vain.

Do you apply this thought to ALL wars that involve religion as a cause?

That's about right.
I put my faith in the bible.
I believe I want to go to heaven, not hell.

Some members here agree with putting “faith in the bible” and aspiring to go to “heaven”. Others regard the bible as fable, fiction or fraud and regard “heaven” as wishful thinking or a religious sales pitch.

So what do you put your faith in? Evolution? That was a story created by Darwin.

Are you attempting to construct straw men to attack? Note: “Straw Man” arguments are fundamental errors in logic that consist of crediting another person with a position that they did not take – a position that is apparently easy to attack.

Are you knowledgeable enough about evolution to debate its implications with supported and substantiated arguments?

Philosophy? I took philosophy in college. There was one thought that goes like this: "If I had a table in the attic, and I was not in my attic, how do I know the table still exists? How do I even know the attic still exists? How do I even know anything exists?" I think this is crazy.

Do you feel qualified to demean and dismiss philosophy on the basis of ONE college course?

Would you feel qualified to attempt to discredit philosophy in debate with people who have studied the field for many years and who might have taught college classes in the subject? There may be members of this forum who are highly trained philosophers. (Note: I am NOT one of them. My training was primarily in scientific fields).

What was your area of specialization in college?

[bernee51]

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."

Yes...there were influential and reactionary rabbis in Palestine during the period. Some were executed. It was a time of occupation.

Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:

Tacitus was writing 50-70 years after the death of Jesus. He speaks of christians. No one doubts followers of he who becme known as Christ existed.

Shifting the burden of will do you no good. It is you making the positive claims...you have not shown that he lived, did die and, most importantly, rose from the dead.

The above information is from Ancient Non-Christian sources which indicate that Jesus "Lived" "Died". Now the question is, if He lived and died like they say, then where is His body?

If the man who became known as Christ was indeed executed by the Romans his biody would have gone the same way as that of every other criminal. Thrown on a rubbish heap to be eaten by wild dogs. Where are his remains? Look for coprolites.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I have a low regard fot the misogynist misanthrope Paul who hijacked and adulterated what could have been a great flowering of humanity and turned into a reflection of his own hysterical and warped world view.

Not believing in God or believing in God that does not punish evil just makes no sense to me based on my moral code. See I believe it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, etc... It seems to me that everyone here that does not believe in God or only believes in a God that does not punish evil is trying to justify evil (sin). You do away with God or a God that has no Hell to do away with the moral law (whats right or whats wrong). The problem is we all know the truth when it comes to whats right and wrong.

So the only reason you can think of that one might not beleive in your god concept is because they wish to 'sin'? You are joking aren't you? Are you familiar with the Eightfold path - devised 600 years before your Christ by someone you would regard as an atheist.

Who is the 'we' in we all? Are you speaking for all of humanity for all time. Have not moral codes evolved over the millennia? Can you describe a manner in which absolute standards of right and wrong can be determined? If they exist they must be, by definition, global and eternal.

[OnceConvinced]

There. Now, Hitler did not repent on his deathbed. He ate a cyanide pill and blew his brains out with a .25 caliber pistol,

I don't think that's ever been proven.

and his last communication of record was to urge the continued murder of Jews. Plus, the obvious assumption here that the Jews he had murdered all went to Hell is a bit much to take.

One more time; what are the chances that Jews would become Christians when it has usually been Christians who were torturing and murdering them, and usually explicitly in the name of Christ?

No mercy for them, I see.

The reason I posted that little story was not to condemn Jews in any way. It was simply to expose the fundamentalist Christian's warped view of Hell. The fact that an evil b'stard like Hitler, if he really had repented could have ended up in Heaven, whilst those who didn't accept Christ ended up in Hell for no good reason. I for one do not believe all those Jews went to hell, but the fundamentalist Christian most likely would (for the simple fact they rejected Christ and died before they had the chance to accept him), which I agree, is a belief that is certainly very vomit enducing.

[cnorman18]

There. Now, Hitler did not repent on his deathbed. He ate a cyanide pill and blew his brains out with a .25 caliber pistol,

I don't think that's ever been proven.

and his last communication of record was to urge the continued murder of Jews. Plus, the obvious assumption here that the Jews he had murdered all went to Hell is a bit much to take.

One more time; what are the chances that Jews would become Christians when it has usually been Christians who were torturing and murdering them, and usually explicitly in the name of Christ?

No mercy for them, I see.

The reason I posted that little story was not to condemn Jews in any way. It was simply to expose the fundamentalist Christian's warped view of Hell. The fact that an evil b'stard like Hitler, if he really had repented could have ended up in Heaven, whilst those who didn't accept Christ ended up in Hell for no good reason. I for one do not believe all those Jews went to hell, but the fundamentalist Christian most likely would (for the simple fact they rejected Christ and died before they had the chance to accept him), which I agree, is a belief that is certainly very vomit enducing.

My apologies. I haven't gotten to know everyone yet, and I thought you were serious. There have been posts here that are a lot more emetic in effect than that one.

That's the problem with sarcasm; there are always people around who are likely to take it literally and agree with it. I suspect that there are some around here who saw nothing wrong with that post at all.

Again, my apologies.

[OnceConvinced]

There. Now, Hitler did not repent on his deathbed. He ate a cyanide pill and blew his brains out with a .25 caliber pistol,

I don't think that's ever been proven.

and his last communication of record was to urge the continued murder of Jews. Plus, the obvious assumption here that the Jews he had murdered all went to Hell is a bit much to take.

One more time; what are the chances that Jews would become Christians when it has usually been Christians who were torturing and murdering them, and usually explicitly in the name of Christ?

No mercy for them, I see.

The reason I posted that little story was not to condemn Jews in any way. It was simply to expose the fundamentalist Christian's warped view of Hell. The fact that an evil b'stard like Hitler, if he really had repented could have ended up in Heaven, whilst those who didn't accept Christ ended up in Hell for no good reason. I for one do not believe all those Jews went to hell, but the fundamentalist Christian most likely would (for the simple fact they rejected Christ and died before they had the chance to accept him), which I agree, is a belief that is certainly very vomit enducing.

My apologies. I haven't gotten to know everyone yet, and I thought you were serious. There have been posts here that are a lot more emetic in effect than that one.

That's the problem with sarcasm; there are always people around who are likely to take it literally and agree with it. I suspect that there are some around here who saw nothing wrong with that post at all.

Again, my apologies.

Hey, no need to apologise, I understand completely. It's not easy to keep track of everyone, especially when there's so many topics and so many debates. And I'm only active in a few of them. I do know, my sarcasm can sometimes be taken the wrong way. I figured you might not have realised where I was coming from and it's fully understandable.

[Confused]

I dared - I'm bad .

Gee - I only managed one out of ten as a not guilty. Does that make me 'bad'?

One better than me

I haven't murdered anyone. That is the only thing I can say. Somehow I don't think getting one out of ten right is any better than missing them all.
Well, see you all in the great underworld. Save me a seat if you get there first.

[Fallibleone]

1 out of 10 for me too.

Never mind, I'd rather be in Hell with people like you than in Heaven with those who are so sure they'll get in that they no longer have to bother with boring stuff like compassion and respect.

[cnorman18]

Servant, I am a little puzzled that you have nor responded to this post:

Ok cnorman18 I will try to address your issues.

For starters, it redefines 7 of the 10 to mean things that were not intended at Sinai; but never mind that.

Please prove your point about 7 or the 10 being redefined.

Sure.

1. This Commandment says not to put other gods before God. It doesn't say you can't care about anything else at all by comparison.. Authentic faith and fanatical obsessiveness are not the same thing.

2. This Commandment refers to literal idols, not differing conceptions of God. Judaism has always been aware of God's differing attributes, and there is no one single permitted understanding of Him.

3. This Commandment refers to God's actual Name, YHVH in Hebrew, not the word "God" or the name of Jesus. It's hard to violate this one today, because no one knows how it was pronounced (it for sure wasn't "Yahweh").

4. This Commandment refers to certain specific laws regarding the Sabbath, that is, sunset Friday till full dark Saturday night; those are obviously not what is being spoken of here. You also can't just pick any day of the week.

5. OK, but it ought to be made clear that offenses by children don't count. Anyone who says that you're going to Hell because you said "I hate you, Mommy!" when you were two is not someone well acquainted with basic decency, let alone with God.

6. This Commandment refers only to actual, literal murder. Anger is not murder, even when it's unwarranted. Neither is hatred. For what Jesus said, are below under #7.

7. This Commandment clearly refers to the actual act of adultery, not lust. Lust is normal; if one felt no attraction at all to other women, one would feel none for one's wife. Acting upon feelings of lust are quite another matter.
Yes, I know Jesus said it.
First, Jesus often said things to indicate that no one is perfect and that pride is unwarranted. I never saw any indication that he meant that everyone who ever felt attracted to a woman to whom he was not married was going to Hell. Whatever else he may have been, Jesus was not insane.
Second, Jesus was making an obvious distinction between sinning "in one's heart" and literally committing the sin. I suspect that if he had been asked, he would have said that there is a bit of difference between anger and actual murder.
Third, whether he said this or not, the meaning of the Commandments in Exodus are very clear, and even if one accepts that he had the authority to do so (which I don't), Jesus had no intention of changing those meanings, nor did he ever claim to. On the contrary, he affirmed that the Law was to remain unchanged.

8. OK. Theft is theft, with the same caveat about childhood offenses.

9. This Commandment is completely restated, and falsely. It actually refers to "bearing false witness," and it refers to giving false testimony in a trial. Lying in small matters, particularly for "the peace of the home" or shalom bayit, is not a sin; this is proven implicitly by Abraham's lying by omission to Sarah about what God said about her to spare her feelings.

10. OK, but a distinction ought to be made between wanting one's neighbor's car and wanting one like it.

Revising the Commandments in order to render them virtually impossible for anyone to keep is directly against the instruction of the Bible itself in Deuteronomy 30:11-14: "11 Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?’ 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe."

This test was nothing more than a dishonest exercise in unwarranted hyperbole and scare tactics. There are good, honest and decent arguments for Christianity--any book by C. S. Lewis is full of them--but they do not include manipulation and phony guilt trips and ignoring the burning passion that Jesus for the Golden Rule, which is totally absent here.

According to this, God made us prone to sin (or, if you like, so we must bear the guilt of a single sin committed thousands of years ago), and then set up a list of rules that He knows are impossible to follow; then demands that we not make the smallest error, even as children, on pain of eternal punishment in Hell.

It's called freedom. God did not want robots so He gave us free will. Sin (Evil) goes hand in hand with love (freedom). They are both in proportion with each other as it is the only good way for God to be fair. You can chose to sin (evil) or you can chose love (freedom). In God's goodness He does give us a way to be not judged. Later on that.

So you do not believe in Original Sin. That means you have set up a God to your own liking and ignored the teachings of the Church.

Look it up.

Whatever we do that is good is of no account whatever, so we ought not worry about doing good. That doesn't matter at all.

No one is good except God. If you took the test I believe you know that.

Confirming, again, that doing good is not important, in direct contradiction to a very great deal indeed of what Jesus himself taught.

Only by thinking certain thoughts--that is, by believing something we are told--and by reciting a magic formula, can escape this terrible and inevitable fate.

Thoughts have nothing to do with it. The demons know the truth but they will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. Only understanding who we are and acknowledging what God has done for us can spare our life from Hell.

How is that different from thinking the right thoughts? "Understanding" and "acknowledging" are both kinds of thoughts; they are certainly not acts.

Then, it doesn't matter what we have done, however depraved, evil, or murderous--everything is now OK and we get eternal bliss and reward. And it still doesn't matter if we do anything good, because now we don't have to; we are saved and OK and guaranteed a place in Heaven.

There is no sin or evil thing anyone can do that can stop the Creator of everything from forgiving us if we truly come to the understanding of how much we have transgressed God's Holy Law and sincerely are sorry for it. You cannot continue to live in sin with no regard or fear of the Lord and have true salvation. If you did it would be a false conversion.

The torturers were very certain indeed that they were serving God and doing His will when they were burning Jews' genitals with red-hot irons and breaking their joints on the rack. Are they going to
Hell because they were mistaken, or to Heaven because they believed in Jesus? How were they supposed to know they were wrong? Were they wrong?

How do you know your own approach isn't wrong right now? There are many fine Christian scholars and clergymen who think it is, and profoundly so.

Good deeds don't matter at all, either way. Only mistakes count, every single one of them, and if we hold the right thoughts, then they don't matter either. Only the right thoughts matter. Nothing else.

Again thoughts have nothing to do with it. There is a great saying maybe you've heard: We can not stop the birds from flying over our heads, but we can keep them from making a nest in our hair.

That is about temptation, and it's a non sequitur in this context.

Right thoughts will do no one any good when they find themselves in God's Holy Courtroom. You will have to give an account for what you have done in the outwardly ways and your thoughts. God knows everything.

(emphasis added above)

So one is saved by works and not by faith? That's fine with me, but that's not what this "test" is saying, and that isn't what you've been saying up to now.

Oh, yeah; and if your people have been slandered, persecuted, beaten, tortured, exiled, and murdered en masse for centuries, by Christians, explicitly in the name of Christ, to the point that you would never even consider adopting their religion, you have to go to Hell anyway--while their tormentors are rewarded with bliss in Heaven because they thought the right thoughts and said the right words.

Again as I have already stated, we cannot blame God for the evil things people do in the name of any Religion.

And as I said before, no one ever blamed God for this. The question is, did the torturers go to Heaven? They believed in Jesus.

Everyone will have to give an account for their life in front of the Holy Judge of the Universe. The one and only True Living God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So believing in Jesus as your personal savior isn't enough. I'm okay with that.

You still haven't answered the question, though; did they go to Heaven, or not? It's "yes" or "no." Very simple.

Sorry. I believe in God--but not that God.

You have just broken the 2nd commandment. You have created an image of God in your own mind that your more comfortable with.

The Second Commandment, as I said and as the Bible makes clear, is about actual idols. Show me anywhere in the entire Bible that anyone is condemned under this Commandment for having an actually erroneous conception of God, let alone a merely different one.

In any case, I think that whoever wrote this "test" has made up a new God. I have already proven that the meaning, and in one case the actual words, of the Commandments has been deliberately distorted for the purpose of making them impossible to keep--which the Bible itself says they are not. Who's trying to understand the real God of the Bible, and who is making up a God of their own and deciding whom He will condemn and to whom He will show mercy?

If you can explain to me why a Christian, who believes in Jesus as his personal savior, and who pours molten lead down the throat of a Jew who refuses to convert in an effort to force his watching family to do so, gets to go to Heaven while his victims go to Hell because they do NOT believe in Jesus as their personal savior--well, make me believe that that is God's justice, and I will believe in that God.

See above comment it applys here.

No, it doesn't. Answer the questions directly, yes or no, and stop appealing to dogma and hoping you won't have to.

All people have transgressed against God's Holy Law. Everyone will be judged fairly as God is the perfect Judge. God does not force His ways on us. He gives us freedom to choose. Anyone that could do something as horrible as you noted above will be judged for murder. Just calling on the name of Jesus does not save you. God will not be mocked this way.

But they believed that they were serving God and trusted Jesus to save them. So that wasn't enough? You claim that it's possible to know exactly how God will judge is, so answer the question directly: did they go to Heaven, or to Hell?

You have not even bothered to mention the fate of the Jews they tortured. Heaven, or Hell? If you're so sure you know how God judges, which is it?

If you admit that you don't know, you're agreeing with me to leave it to God.

Which is it?

And while you're at it, convince me that black is white, up is down, and pigs can fly backwards.

This I cannot do but one day when I am with the Lord I will have complete understanding and knowledge. I pray that I see you there.

That's the first thing you've said here with which I can agree. You claim to know the mind of God and how He will judge. I don't. One day, if there is a life after this one, we will know. Not till then.

Which reminds me: there is another question you have not answered.

Why do you think Jews who do not believe in Heaven remain faithful and observant Jews? Have you even bothered to think about that?

Ok wow glad I got through that. Now my wife said I am neglecting her so I must excuse myself for a time of unknown length. If I don't respond quickly please don't get anger with me.

Take your time; as you can see, you haven't "gotten through" this yet by a long shot.

"And the Lord was pleased with the sacrifice and said to himself, "I will never again curse the earth, destroying all living things, even though people's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood."

Original Sin again. You really need to make up your mind about that.

So how about it?

[stmw]

.

I think murdering others in the name of Christ is taking God's name in vain.

Do you apply this thought to ALL wars that involve religion as a cause?

I wouldn't say ALL wars, but I believe many wars were not desired by God. I think of the 100 years war between the Catholics and the Protestants as another example.

Are you knowledgeable enough about evolution to debate its implications with supported and substantiated arguments?

I was taught in college the distinctions between micro-evolution (small changes within a species) and macro-evolution (a species that takes the next step and changes into another species). I believe in micro-evolution, not macro-evolution. I believe more in the Creationist views.

Philosophy? I took philosophy in college. There was one thought that goes like this: "If I had a table in the attic, and I was not in my attic, how do I know the table still exists? How do I even know the attic still exists? How do I even know anything exists?" I think this is crazy.

Do you feel qualified to demean and dismiss philosophy on the basis of ONE college course?

Would you feel qualified to attempt to discredit philosophy in debate with people who have studied the field for many years and who might have taught college classes in the subject? There may be members of this forum who are highly trained philosophers. (Note: I am NOT one of them. My training was primarily in scientific fields).

What was your area of specialization in college?

I majored in engineering and took my 2 required classes in Philosophy. The reason I took them because I was looking for the "meaning of life", and it sounded very interesting. I suppose I was disappointed because I had high expectations. Anyway I did learn some interesting ideas, and I do not regret I took the classes. But I wonder about some of the ideas, especially the above mentioned, if the person was hallucinating.