Are you a Good Person?

[servant]

Take the test if you dare:



http://www.livingwaters.com/good/

[servant]

Ok Goat you first.

am 100% sure.

Are you 100% sure that Nastrand doesn't exist, and if you don't believe in Odin you will be sent there?

100 percent sure of what Goat? Hell. How do you know? Have you died, been dead for longer than a few minutes or hours and came back? I am a simple man but I do know that there are things I cannot explain or have knowledge about. Lets take for example skydiving. Now I know what it feels like to have over 1000 skydives from 13k feet personally but unless you have jumped over 1000 times there is no way to personally know for sure what it feels like. You have to experience it to understand it. Or here is a tougher question about having 100% knowledge. Answer this question. How many grains of sand is there in Sahara desert. I mean if you have 100% knowledge you should be able to answer this question.

For the record no I am not 100% sure that Nastrand doesn't exist because I don't have 100% knowledge about everything. So I have to be honest with myself and I believe I owe it to myself to look at all the evidence for things that concern me. Eternity concerns me because thats a long time. Thats the main reason I am here is to hear other view points.

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: --

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I have seen this "test" before. It has more to do with polemic and propaganda than with actual religion.

For starters, it redefines 7 of the 10 to mean things that were not intended at Sinai; but never mind that.

According to this, God made us prone to sin (or, if you like, so we must bear the guilt of a single sun committed thousands of years ago), and then set up a list of rules that He knows are impossible to follow; then demands that we not make the smallest error, even as children, on pain of eternal punishment in Hell.

Whatever we do that is good is of no account whatever, so we ought not worry about doing good. That doesn't matter at all.

Only by thinking certain thoughts--that is, by believing something we are told--and by reciting a magic formula, can escape this terrible and inevitable fate.

Then, it doesn't matter what we have done, however depraved, evil, or murderous--everything is now OK and we get eternal bliss and reward. And it still doesn't matter if we do anything good, because now we don't have to; we are saved and OK and guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Good deeds don't matter at all, either way. Only mistakes count, every single one of them, and if we hold the right thoughts, then they don't matter either. Only the right thoughts matter. Nothing else.

Oh, yeah; and if your people have been slandered, persecuted, beaten, tortured, exiled, and murdered en masse for centuries, by Christians, explicitly in the name of Christ, to the point that you would never even consider adopting their religion, you have to go to Hell anyway--while their tormentors are rewarded with bliss in Heaven because they thought the right thoughts and said the right words.

Sorry. I believe in God--but not that God.

If you can explain to me why a Christian, who believes in Jesus as his personal savior, and who pours molten lead down the throat of a Jew who refuses to convert in an effort to force his watching family to do so, gets to go to Heaven while his victims go to Hell because they do NOT believe in Jesus as their personal savior--well, make me believe that that is God's justice, and I will believe in that God.

And while you're at it, convince me that black is white, up is down, and pigs can fly backwards.

God does not make us prone to sin He just gives us Free Will to chose Him or not chose Him.

God is Holy and has to punish sin (10 commandments). Now this is hard for you to accept because you want to continue in sin and not be held accountable for it. But lets just put you and everyone else here, including ME in a human man made court room. Now if we are standing before a earthly Judge in court and are guilty and have confessed don't we have to pay a penality for our crime. Of course we do. Good Judges don't just let people go because they think the Law does not apply to them or they are really really sorry for what they have done.

Now lets put ourselfs in God's court room were everything will be brought to justice in His Holy Righteousness. What can we possible say for ourselfs? We will be guilty because we have all broken His Law. People that break Laws have to pay Fines. It's just the way it works. It does not matter if we believe it it's just plain Reality.

On to your last point about all the Christian's that have persecuted people. I would argue that they were evil men and women that were hiding under the name of Christianity. God had nothing to do with these acts of evil anymore than God had anything to do with people of the Islam faith flying planes into the World Trade Center. You of all people saying that you are a Jew "one of God's chosen children" should know this. Some people do good and some do bad, but we all fall short of the Holy God and none will be found innocent if they are hoping their good works will be enough. Just like I cannot stand in front of a earthly Judge and say: Your honor I know I am guilty of breaking the Law but I think I've done more good than bad so you should let me go.

Now I would share the Good News but at this point it would be of no use.

"Stop fooling yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world's standards, you will have to become a fool so you can become wise by God's standards. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God." As the Scriptures say, "God catchs those who think they are wise in their own cleverness." "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are worthless."

[Furrowed Brow]

100 percent sure of what Goat? Hell. How do you know?

I'm sure Goat will give you an answer Servant. In the meantime I too am certain there is no Hell. I'm certain in the same way I'm certain there is no Valhalla or Hades. Now you can try to turn the question of Hell into a problem of knowledge and evidence, or just a question of uncertainty. But I don't dismiss Valhalla or Hades on their lack of evidence, or as a question of probability. I dismiss them because they are stories. Mythologies spun to express ideas and fears and to make for a late night yarn by the fireside. That some people sincerely believe their myth is not a question of knowledge but a question of being immersed in the mythology.

The problem I think the more fundamental theists struggle to accept is that a fair majority of us non believers have a clear vision that mythology is being peddled in the name of truth. It is also plain that at times theists get frustrated with us non believers who keep comparing their God or Jesus or Satan to fairies, Santa, Greek Gods, Viking Gods, Jabberwockies and so on. Often this is taken as a sign of disrespect. But that misses the point. Questions about Hell are not epistemological questions as to what we might or might not know. They are questions drawn from and immersed in ancient texts mindset and myths. To then turn the myths of our ancients texts into questions about reality is itself abpout as real as keeping an open mind about the Greek gods. Appeals to take seriously the metaphysical reality described by scripture just carry zero weight outside of the scripture belief system.

[cnorman18]

I have seen this "test" before. It has more to do with polemic and propaganda than with actual religion.

For starters, it redefines 7 of the 10 to mean things that were not intended at Sinai; but never mind that.

According to this, God made us prone to sin (or, if you like, so we must bear the guilt of a single sun committed thousands of years ago), and then set up a list of rules that He knows are impossible to follow; then demands that we not make the smallest error, even as children, on pain of eternal punishment in Hell.

Whatever we do that is good is of no account whatever, so we ought not worry about doing good. That doesn't matter at all.

Only by thinking certain thoughts--that is, by believing something we are told--and by reciting a magic formula, can escape this terrible and inevitable fate.

Then, it doesn't matter what we have done, however depraved, evil, or murderous--everything is now OK and we get eternal bliss and reward. And it still doesn't matter if we do anything good, because now we don't have to; we are saved and OK and guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Good deeds don't matter at all, either way. Only mistakes count, every single one of them, and if we hold the right thoughts, then they don't matter either. Only the right thoughts matter. Nothing else.

Oh, yeah; and if your people have been slandered, persecuted, beaten, tortured, exiled, and murdered en masse for centuries, by Christians, explicitly in the name of Christ, to the point that you would never even consider adopting their religion, you have to go to Hell anyway--while their tormentors are rewarded with bliss in Heaven because they thought the right thoughts and said the right words.

Sorry. I believe in God--but not that God.

If you can explain to me why a Christian, who believes in Jesus as his personal savior, and who pours molten lead down the throat of a Jew who refuses to convert in an effort to force his watching family to do so, gets to go to Heaven while his victims go to Hell because they do NOT believe in Jesus as their personal savior--well, make me believe that that is God's justice, and I will believe in that God.

And while you're at it, convince me that black is white, up is down, and pigs can fly backwards.

God does not make us prone to sin He just gives us Free Will to chose Him or not chose Him.

You don't believe in Original Sin? That's a very basic Christian doctrine. Without it there is no basis for thinking that all mankind is doomed to Hell without Jesus.

What will you argue now? Against one of the most fundamental doctrines of Christianity in order to counter my arguments, or go with Church doctrine and try to backtrack and justify it?

God is Holy and has to punish sin (10 commandments). Now this is hard for you to accept because you want to continue in sin and not be held accountable for it.

That's just a bit presumptuous and self-righteous, isn't it? What evidence do you have that I want to "continue in sin" and not to serve God? You don't know me at all.

But lets just put you and everyone else here, including ME in a human man made court room. Now if we are standing before a earthly Judge in court and are guilty and have confessed don't we have to pay a penality for our crime. Of course we do. Good Judges don't just let people go because they think the Law does not apply to them or they are really really sorry for what they have done.

Now lets put ourselfs in God's court room were everything will be brought to justice in His Holy Righteousness. What can we possible say for ourselfs? We will be guilty because we have all broken His Law. People that break Laws have to pay Fines. It's just the way it works. It does not matter if we believe it it's just plain Reality.

You have not countered a single point I made, but only confirmed them: Only mistakes matter, even the tiniest that we make as children; good deeds do not matter in the least, so there is no need to do them at all; and a magic formula and thinking the right things are all that will save us.

Thanks for confirming my criticisms to be completely accurate.

On to your last point about all the Christian's that have persecuted people. I would argue that they were evil men and women that were hiding under the name of Christianity. God had nothing to do with these acts of evil anymore than God had anything to do with people of the Islam faith flying planes into the World Trade Center.

I never said that God did have anything to do with their acts. You missed the point entirely and did not answer the question, nor even come close. See below.

You of all people saying that you are a Jew "one of God's chosen children" should know this. Some people do good and some do bad, but we all fall short of the Holy God and none will be found innocent if they are hoping their good works will be enough. Just like I cannot stand in front of a earthly Judge and say: Your honor I know I am guilty of breaking the Law but I think I've done more good than bad so you should let me go.

Now I would share the Good News but at this point it would be of no use.

"Stop fooling yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world's standards, you will have to become a fool so you can become wise by God's standards. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God." As the Scriptures say, "God catchs those who think they are wise in their own cleverness." "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are worthless."

The preaching is unnecessary, as I told you in the beginning.

Now answer the question I asked: The torturers believed in Jesus as their personal savior, as prescribed in your theology. Did they go to Heaven?

Their victims did not; did they go to Hell?

If the answers are "Yes" in both cases, explain to me how that is justice or mercy, by any sane definition.

Try again. That attempt was a dismal failure. You confirmed my analysis and did not answer my questions.

[servant]

Like I said if you cannot tell me how many grains of sand are in the Sahara desert you cannot have 100% knowledge. Without 100% knowledge you cannot be sure there is no Hell. Just hoping, and thats what your doing, does not make it so.

cnorman18:

I'm sorry I should have not said you wanted to sin. Can you please forgive me? As far as your other points go let me think about them some. To honest they are not making much since to me. It's most likely I'm a simple person and not as smart as the rest of you guys.

I wont disappear though, unless the Lord comes back

[Furrowed Brow]

Like I said if you cannot tell me how many grains of sand are in the Sahara desert you cannot have 100% knowledge. Without 100% knowledge you cannot be sure there is no Hell. Just hoping, and that’s what your doing, does not make it so.

You seem to like this argument Servant. Let me draw your attention to the logical fallacy it purveys. Just because our knowledge is lacking in one respect does not mean we cannot be certain about a hold raft of other stuff.

And there is much else we can still be 100% certain. 2 + 2 = 4, ~(Ex).~Fx = (Ax).Fx, the speed of light is 299792458 m/s, and there is stuff we know pretty darn accurately e.g. the mass of the proton relative to the electron is 1836.15267..., 1/alpha = 137.03599971..., the magnetic moment anomaly is 0.001159 652 181 11. Though we cannot be absolutely certain of the accuracy of the nth digits we can draw reasonable conclusions with 100% certainty. For example 1/alpha falls between 137.035 and 137.037. We can also say with certainty the Jabberwocky does not exist, nor Hades, nor Thor.

Being uncertain about the grains of sand in the Sahara has no bearing on the degree of certainty we may have about anything else…including Hell.

[cnorman18]

cnorman18:

I'm sorry I should have not said you wanted to sin. Can you please forgive me?

Don't be silly. Of course. I know you didn't mean it to be as personal as it sounded. It's just an Internet debate.

But you should watch out for that kind of talk, anyway. Theology has its limits, and even if yours mandates passing judgment on others--as it clearly does--it can come across as I indicated.

As far as your other points go let me think about them some. To honest they are not making much since to me. It's most likely I'm a simple person and not as smart as the rest of you guys.

I wont disappear though, unless the Lord comes back

They are simple yes-or-no questions. If you find them hard to answer, then the question of justice and salvation is more complicated than this website--and your statements--make it appear.

Don't just try to think of a suitable answer for me. Try to work out what those questions mean for your own beliefs and faith.

My criticism was a caricature. Real Christianity has very little in common with it. For starters, Jesus did have a couple of things to say about doing good deeds--feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and like that, right? They must count for something.

Maybe whether or not you go to Heaven really isn't the only thing that's important. Maybe thinking that way is even a little selfish.

And maybe thinking the right things and saying the right words really aren't all there is to it, either. Maybe you have to live like those thoughts and words mean something.

And maybe there is even mercy for those who don't think or say them, but suffered and died and still remained faithful to the same God that Jesus worshipped--and that they worshipped in the same ways that he did.

Think about it.

[servant]

You seem to like this argument Servant. Let me draw your attention to the logical fallacy it purveys. Just because our knowledge is lacking in one respect does not mean we cannot be certain about a hold raft of other stuff.

And there is much else we can still be 100% certain. 2 + 2 = 4, ~(Ex).~Fx = (Ax).Fx, the speed of light is 299792458 m/s, and there is stuff we know pretty darn accurately e.g. the mass of the proton relative to the electron is 1836.15267..., 1/alpha = 137.03599971..., the magnetic moment anomaly is 0.001159 652 181 11. Though we cannot be absolutely certain of the accuracy of the nth digits we can draw reasonable conclusions with 100% certainty. For example 1/alpha falls between 137.035 and 137.037. We can also say with certainty the Jabberwocky does not exist, nor Hades, nor Thor.

Being uncertain about the grains of sand in the Sahara has no bearing on the degree of certainty we may have about anything else…including Hell.

Lets point out your problem in the above comment you made:

Just because our knowledge is lacking in one respect does not mean we cannot be certain about a hold raft of other stuff.

Here you admit to not having complete knowledge of everything. We are talking about the afterlife. Unless you have died and experienced death you have no real knowledge of it. The best you can do is form an opinion of what you've read, studied and believe. But without the experience of it you cannot know it 100% sure. A simple example would be me saying that I am 100% sure I don't like apples because of what I think they taste like from what I've read or just believe. Now if I have never in my whole life tasted an apple before I cannot have the complete knowledge of what it will taste like. I can have a basic idea but I need to experience it to know for sure.

If your going to say you know for sure there is no Hell then the burden of proof falls upon you to proof that truth. Please don't just give me your opinion but reference books, groups, people that have died and been dead and come back to life.


Ok cnorman18 I will try to address your issues.

For starters, it redefines 7 of the 10 to mean things that were not intended at Sinai; but never mind that.

Please prove your point about 7 or the 10 being redefined.

According to this, God made us prone to sin (or, if you like, so we must bear the guilt of a single sun committed thousands of years ago), and then set up a list of rules that He knows are impossible to follow; then demands that we not make the smallest error, even as children, on pain of eternal punishment in Hell.

It's called freedom. God did not want robots so He gave us free will. Sin (Evil) goes hand in hand with love (freedom). They are both in proportion with each other as it is the only good way for God to be fair. You can chose to sin (evil) or you can chose love (freedom). In God's goodness He does give us a way to be not judged. Later on that.

Whatever we do that is good is of no account whatever, so we ought not worry about doing good. That doesn't matter at all.

No one is good except God. If you took the test I believe you know that.

Only by thinking certain thoughts--that is, by believing something we are told--and by reciting a magic formula, can escape this terrible and inevitable fate.

Thoughts have nothing to do with it. The demons know the truth but they will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. Only understanding who we are and acknowledging what God has done for us can spare our life from Hell.

Then, it doesn't matter what we have done, however depraved, evil, or murderous--everything is now OK and we get eternal bliss and reward. And it still doesn't matter if we do anything good, because now we don't have to; we are saved and OK and guaranteed a place in Heaven.

There is no sin or evil thing anyone can do that can stop the Creator of everything from forgiving us if we truly come to the understanding of how much we have transgressed God's Holy Law and sincerely are sorry for it. You cannot continue to live in sin with no regard or fear of the Lord and have true salvation. If you did it would be a false conversion.

Good deeds don't matter at all, either way. Only mistakes count, every single one of them, and if we hold the right thoughts, then they don't matter either. Only the right thoughts matter. Nothing else.

Again thoughts have nothing to do with it. There is a great saying maybe you've heard: We can not stop the birds from flying over our heads, but we can keep them from making a nest in our hair. Right thoughts will do no one any good when they find themselves in God's Holy Courtroom. You will have to give an account for what you have done in the outwardly ways and your thoughts. God knows everything.

Oh, yeah; and if your people have been slandered, persecuted, beaten, tortured, exiled, and murdered en masse for centuries, by Christians, explicitly in the name of Christ, to the point that you would never even consider adopting their religion, you have to go to Hell anyway--while their tormentors are rewarded with bliss in Heaven because they thought the right thoughts and said the right words.

Again as I have already stated, we cannot blame God for the evil things people do in the name of any Religion. Everyone will have to give an account for their life in front of the Holy Judge of the Universe. The one and only True Living God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Sorry. I believe in God--but not that God.

You have just broken the 2nd commandment. You have created an image of God in your own mind that your more comfortable with.

If you can explain to me why a Christian, who believes in Jesus as his personal savior, and who pours molten lead down the throat of a Jew who refuses to convert in an effort to force his watching family to do so, gets to go to Heaven while his victims go to Hell because they do NOT believe in Jesus as their personal savior--well, make me believe that that is God's justice, and I will believe in that God.

See above comment it applys here. All people have transgressed against God's Holy Law. Everyone will be judged fairly as God is the perfect Judge. God does not force His ways on us. He gives us freedom to choose. Anyone that could do something as horrible as you noted above will be judged for murder. Just calling on the name of Jesus does not save you. God will not be mocked this way.

And while you're at it, convince me that black is white, up is down, and pigs can fly backwards.

This I cannot do but one day when I am with the Lord I will have complete understanding and knowledge. I pray that I see you there.

Ok wow glad I got through that. Now my wife said I am neglecting her so I must excuse myself for a time of unknown length. If I don't respond quickly please don't get anger with me.

"And the Lord was pleased with the sacrifice and said to himself, "I will never again curse the earth, destroying all living things, even though people's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood."

[bernee51]

Here you admit to not having complete knowledge of everything.

A 100% knowledge of everything is not required in order to know something does not exist. Do married bachelors exist? Square circle? of course no, they are logical impossibiites. In the same way I know that an omnipotent, eternal, unchanging creator deity does not exist. Along with the disapeparence of your god i n a puff of logic so also goes his baggage...heaven, hell, salvation

[servant]

Your wrong. Prove it if you know for sure.

[bernee51]

Your wrong. Prove it if you know for sure.

If one of the characteristics of your god is that he/she/it is eternal and unchanging then other characteistics would also apply. Before creation it was 'the god who had not created', after creation it became 'the god who had created'. Ergo not unchanging.

Re: omnipotence...

the act of creation either happened without god's input or happened as a result of its desire. Either way omnipotence is lost.

The characteristics usually attributed to a creator deity ensure its illogicity and therefore its non-existence.