Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #145]

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

If you're going to prove literal contradiction of the words, you have to use the words literally.

"And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not"
(1Samuel 28:6)

"and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord"
(1Chronicles 10:13:14)

Those are the words used literally.

[RBD]

In Jeremiah 7:22, the phrase "the day I brought them out of Egypt" serves as a historical marker for the era of the Exodus and the desert wilderness, rather than a literal 24-hour day of them actually exiting Egypt.

Serves a historical marker for who? Not for the Author:

Jos 24:5
I sent Moses also and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt, according to that which I did among them: and afterward I brought you out. And I brought your fathers out of Egypt: and ye came unto the sea; and the Egyptians pursued after your fathers with chariots and horsemen unto the Red sea.

Lev 19:36
Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

The Author's exodus was only when He brought them out of the land of Egypt, not out of the wilderness 40 years later.

Reader's traditions about the Book, don't change the Author's Book, especially not to make the Author contradict himself.

Jer 7:21
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:


The Author did not command any burnt offering in the day He brought them out of Egypt, which ended at the Red Sea crossing. He only commanded burnt offerings later at the mount of Sinai. The Sinai desert was not in Egypt.

And finally, no. The Sinai and Levant being ruled by Egyptians, was never called Egypt by the Author, the Israelites, nor especially the Egyptians. No more than Persia was ever called Greece after Alexander, nor Syria called Rome after Pompey.

In fact, even the traditional names of the books themselves, are self-explanatory: Only the first book is called Exodus, because only Exodus covers the Lord bringing the Israelites out of Egypt, and ends before crossing the Jordan River...

In Jeremiah 7:22, the phrase "the day I brought them out of Egypt" serves as a historical marker for the era of the Exodus and the desert wilderness, rather than a literal 24-hour day of them actually exiting Egypt.

Only to you and some other false traditionalists. Not every reader of the Bible, especially not the Author, ever thinks of the Exodus out of the wilderness, but only to the Exodus out of Egypt.

Crossing over Jordan was the end of their journey through the wilderness, not their Exodus out of Egypt 40 years and a generation ago...revisionist traditions about the Book do not make the Book's Author contradict Himself. As usual, it's only those changing the Book, that makes it contradict their changes.

Seriously: Someone says that the day the Lord brought them out of Egypt, was 40 years later the day they exited the wilderness, not the day they crossed the Red Sea. Therefore, the Author, who never says such a thing, is therefore contradicting...who? Himself or someone else? Someone else of course.

And so it is with all people only seeking fault with the Book: They personally change the Book out of context, and then accuse the Book's Author of contradicting their personal changes...Readers contradicting the Bible, is not the Bible contradicting itself.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #145]

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

If you're going to prove literal contradiction of the words, you have to use the words literally.

"And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not"
(1Samuel 28:6)

"and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord"
(1Chronicles 10:13:14)

Those are the words used literally.

And this is the literal teaching: Saul enquired of the Lord as a rebellious stranger, not as an obedient servant of the LORD.

Eze 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.


He did, but he didn't.

Unless there's something new, old argument is over.

[RBD]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #148]

My response : Saul inquired of Jehovah as stated. It appears that he lacked the needed faith and patience and commitment to the Lord.

He then impatiently abandoned the Lord and sought an answer from one not approved by the Lord.

Is there any way Saul is justified?

He apparently waits long enough to realize that he isn't being answered by dreams, by Urim or by prophets.

Is there any way that is justified?

Yes.

Eze 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

And Saul agreed and went on to the witch instead.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #153]

And this is the literal teaching: Saul enquired of the Lord as a rebellious stranger, not as an obedient servant of the LORD.

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

Taking Samuel's words literally, Saul enquired. Taking the chronicler's words literally, Saul did not enquire. The literal words don't bring Saul's state of mind into the picture.

He did, but he didn't.

He did OR he didn't.

You set up literal words as the criteria. You can't cheat out of that now.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #154]

He apparently waits long enough to realize that he isn't being answered by dreams, by Urim or by prophets.

Is there any way that is justified?

Yes.

Eze 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

Taking the Bible's words literally, Saul did not make his sons pass through the fire or pollute himself with idols.

And Saul agreed and went on to the witch instead.

According to the literal words of Samuel, Saul goes to the witch after he enquires of Yahweh and gets no answer, not instead of asking Yahweh. The chronicler's literal words aren't just false; they're false witness.

[POI]

[Replying to RBD in post #150]

Post 143 still stands tall, in that 'on the day' refers to the Exodus timeline. And during the Exodus timeline, they burnt them some offerings -- which conflicts with Jer. 7:22....

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #153]

Unless there's something new, old argument is over.

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

Taking the gospels' words literally, which you say is necessary to prove literal contradiction, Mary Magdalene did not find the tomb open and then withhold that information from the other women as they all wondered together who would open the tomb for them.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #145]

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
(Jeremiah 23:24)

"The eyes of the Lord are in every place."
(Proverbs 15:3)

"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and, if not, I will know."
(Genesis 18:20-21)

Taking the words of Jeremiah and Proverbs literally, Yahweh fills heaven and earth and sees all. Taking the words of Genesis literally, he had to come down to earth in order to see what was going on in Sodom.


"For he knoweth the secrets of the heart." 
(Psalm 44:21)

"Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men."
(Acts 1:24)

"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul."
(Deuteronomy 13:1-3)

Taking the words of the Psalms and Acts literally, Yahweh knows what is in everyone's heart. Taking the words of Deuteronomy literally, he has to test people to find out what's in their hearts.

[RBD]

Is there any way that is justified?[/i]

Yes.

Eze 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

Taking the Bible's words literally, Saul did not make his sons pass through the fire or pollute himself with idols.

Right. And Saul didn't literally kill the innocent priests, when he had his wicked servant do the killing.

In any case, According to the LORD's law, if you violate it in any point, you are violating all. Not keeping all His commandments, is not keeping any.

1Sa 15:11
It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1Sa 16:1
And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.