Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[RBD]

Jeremiah 7:22 conflicts with verse(s) Leviticus 1-7, Exodus 12:43-49, and Exodus 29:38-42. Jeremiah 7:22 states God did not command burnt offerings (and/or) sacrifices, when bringing Israel out of Egypt. And yet, in the (3) expressed passages, (from Leviticus and Exodus), god clearly did.

In keeping in line with the running theme here, (did he or didn't he) command such offerings?

In keeping with the record, He did not command burnt offerings when bringing them out of Egypt. He only did so later in the wilderness at Mt Sinai. And that was only because of proving themselves as a people unworthy to serve Him by voice alone:

Exo 9:1
Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

Nothing is said of serving Him by burnt offerings, nor of the LORD commanding them to. But only to serve Him by voice, even as Moses:

Exo 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exo 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exo 20:18
And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

But they turned back from the LORD and Moses from hearing His voice, and go forward walking as His peculiar people.

Jer 7:21
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

And so, as you correctly say, in the day of bringing them out of Egypt, the Lord gave no such command to offer burnt sacrifices, but only to hear and obey His voice, and walk as His peculiar people on earth.

As with the Sabbath, man is not made for burnt offerings, but only for serving Him by voice, and walk with Him from the heart. The LORD did not bring them out of Egypt for another religion of burnt sacrifices and offerings.

[RBD]

And so, the Lord did not command any burnt offerings, until after they turned back from personally following Him by voice. And even then, they did not receive His commandment of burnt offerings, until after committing idolatry and fornication at the mount. As Paul says, the law only came by transgression:

Gal 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


And that law only remained until the reformation of Jesus Christ:

Heb 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Now the command to serve the risen God of Israel by His own voice, and to walk with Him, is for any person that repents of sinning against Him for Jesus' sake:

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The first covenant would have never included burnt offerings by law, if they were worthy of hearing and obeying Him by voice. The new covenant is now only by faith in His words, and does not allow for any more religion of commanded burnt offerings:

Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[POI]

He only did so later in the wilderness at Mt Sinai.

In Jeremiah 7:22, the phrase "in the day" (Hebrew: beyom) generally refers to the general period or era of the Exodus, rather than a strict 24-hour day. It highlights that God's primary, initial emphasis was on obedience over ritualistic sacrifice.

[1213]

this is the site for accusing Scripture of being errant. What have you got to prove any Scripture errs from any other Scripture?

Easy. Jeremiah 7:22 conflicts with verse(s) Leviticus 1-7, Exodus 12:43-49, and Exodus 29:38-42. Jeremiah 7:22 states God did not command burnt offerings (and/or) sacrifices, when bringing Israel out of Egypt. And yet, in the (3) expressed passages, (from Leviticus and Exodus), god clearly did.

In keeping in line with the running theme here, (did he or didn't he) command such offerings?

Jeremiah says:
For I did not speak to your fathers, nor command them in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt, concerning matters of burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jeremiah 7:22

That does not mean He never did so, only that He did not do so in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt.

[RBD]

He only did so later in the wilderness at Mt Sinai.

In Jeremiah 7:22, the phrase "in the day" (Hebrew: beyom) generally refers to the general period or era of the Exodus, rather than a strict 24-hour day. It highlights that God's primary, initial emphasis was on obedience over ritualistic sacrifice.

So you want to say, in order to find fault with the record.

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

They were fleeing until crossing the Red Sea. And in the wilderness for 40 years later was not the day He led them out. 40 years later was the day He led them out of the wilderness.

If you're going to prove literal contradiction of the words, you have to use the words literally. In addition, we see the foolishness of trying to change the manner of the words, that make no literal sense at all.

[RBD]

this is the site for accusing Scripture of being errant. What have you got to prove any Scripture errs from any other Scripture?

Easy. Jeremiah 7:22 conflicts with verse(s) Leviticus 1-7, Exodus 12:43-49, and Exodus 29:38-42. Jeremiah 7:22 states God did not command burnt offerings (and/or) sacrifices, when bringing Israel out of Egypt. And yet, in the (3) expressed passages, (from Leviticus and Exodus), god clearly did.

In keeping in line with the running theme here, (did he or didn't he) command such offerings?

Jeremiah says:
For I did not speak to your fathers, nor command them in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt, concerning matters of burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jeremiah 7:22

That does not mean He never did so, only that He did not do so in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt.

As we see, it doesn't take special understanding to read a Book and know the sense of it.

it's only when trying to find fault in the Book, that people insert their own nonsense into the Book, to then say the Book is nonsense. It can be interesting in the beginning to unravel the nonsense inserted, but after a time such nonsense gets old and worn out.

Always in such cases, people are injecting a contradictory reading into the Bible, in order to 'prove' the Bible contradicts itself.

[POI]

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

It's quite ironic that a skeptic should ever have to point out context to a theist. In Jeremiah 7:22, the phrase "the day I brought them out of Egypt" serves as a historical marker for the era of the Exodus and the desert wilderness, rather than a literal 24-hour day of them actually exiting Egypt. The concept of millions of Israelites leaving Egypt (in a single literal 24-hour day) lacks supporting archaeological and historical evidence. Instead, historical and religious analyses suggest a far more complex and gradual sequence of events. Hence, it would be down-right silly to suggest Jer. 7:22 speaks specifically about their physical exit from Egypt, (and that it also only took one day), as it is common knowledge that this process would have taken quite a bit longer.

*** No, Jer. 7:22 is instead speaking about an era, via "the Exodus". --- Which ironically, likely never actually happened anyways. But that conversation can be had in another thread. ***

[Revelations won]

"And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

My response : Saul inquired of Jehovah as stated. It appears that he lacked the needed faith and patience and commitment to the Lord.

He then impatiently abandoned the Lord and sought an answer from one not approved by the Lord.

Is there any way Saul is justified?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #148]

My response : Saul inquired of Jehovah as stated. It appears that he lacked the needed faith and patience and commitment to the Lord.

He then impatiently abandoned the Lord and sought an answer from one not approved by the Lord.

Is there any way Saul is justified?

He apparently waits long enough to realize that he isn't being answered by dreams, by Urim or by prophets.

Is there any way that is justified?

[RBD]

Taking god's words literally, which is necessary to prove literal contradiction, he did not command any sacrifices and burnt offerings in the day He led the people out of Egypt.

It's quite ironic that a skeptic should ever have to point out context to a theist. In Jeremiah 7:22, the phrase "the day I brought them out of Egypt" serves as a historical marker for the era of the Exodus and the desert wilderness, rather than a literal 24-hour day of them actually exiting Egypt.

You've missed the point. No one is saying their Exodus out of Egypt was in one single day. That's self explanatory. And also self-explanatory, that the day the Lord brought the people out of Egypt, was not any day after they were out of Egypt.

All that matters is that the day they were leaving Exodus, there was no burnt offering commanded to begin their journey with God's favor. Which was the religious custom of the day, and so was unusual not to do so, especially with such a great journey and divine purpose.

Noah made a burnt offering before entering the ark. Solomon made a burnt offering before building the temple. The bush is the figure of a burnt offering at the beginning of Moses' Exodus calling.

Unlike the Gods of other nations, the LORD's leadership and favor was by voice of command to Moses, with signs and wonders following.

Jer 7:22
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Exo 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


As God said to Jeremiah, He first commanded them to obey and follow Him by voice, even as with Moses. They first swore to do so, but then withdrew by fear at the sound of His own voice from the mount.

Exo 20:19
And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.


Only then at the mount did God first command any burnt offering, which was after the day He brought them out of Egypt. The Sinai desert was not in Egypt.

Nor was the LORD revealing any new thing, but only reminding the prophet and the people what they already knew from the Book of Moses: God's will is always to lead by personal voice, not by religious sacrifices...

And so, we see once again, much good knowledge and teaching of the Bible can come by disproving accusations, even those from superficial readings as here.