Belief

[POI]

This thread is not to discuss many of the specifics about Christianity. Instead, it is to discuss one seemingly required element for salvation, which is belief. Sure, one can believe that the Bible god exists and still reject that believed upon god (and/or) be rejected by that god. But a fundamental and necessary element looks to be belief in this Bible god.

And sure, I guess a case could also be made that belief is NOT required too. This topic has already been examined here (viewtopic.php?t=39327). for anyone who cares to push back here -- (in that belief is not necessary or required).

And some others may argue that all humans secretly believe and that fundamental belief is already had by all.

All this aside, there exists a Christian populous who thinks that not all believe, and that the Bible god gives us free will to choose. Hence....

...For all intents and purposes, and to address the Christian folks who are under the impression that belief is a minimum requirement for salvation, I have a topic to propose.

For debate: Isn't the Bible god aware that true belief is not a choice?

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #56]

@POI, the historical evidence is available to people in the Bible, but we are all born to reject such evidence. We need to turn away from our rejection and give our lives to him through Jesus by the Spirit as the one, only-true God. Then, we can believe and follow him. Sadly, most humans don't.

This is an apologetic excuse for which any religion could use as "rationalization" pertaining to the asserted existence for any of their god(s). If you state that "believing that God exists is not enough", then there is absolutely no reason for god to remain hidden for so many. If your version of 'belief/faith' warrants more than just knowledge of his mere existence alone, then why hide at all; especially if some of these individuals ask for this basic knowledge of his existence -- for which god clearly does not deliver upon in reality? In other words, according to the Book, why does 'Satan' have a better starting position than all skeptics who doubt he even exists at all; as your brand of 'belief/faith' requires much more than mere knowledge of his existence as a basic and fundamental starting-point?

With all due respect, your last issued response, which I doubt genuinely came from you alone, but is instead baked into the apologetics world, is a gaslighting excuse which merits no actual substance for consideration. Why? I could just as well gaslight any individual in the same way, if they did not believe in my asserted god, ghost, fairy, gnome, or any other asserted invisible being or deity, for which clear evidence is lacking.

Further, I possess knowledge of existence for many beings and things for which I wished actually did not exist; and would also reject in following, even if they asked.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #71]

All I have to say to you, @POI, is Paul's words in Romans 1:18-20, where he states that all humans have experienced God's revelation of himself as our Creator through the design and beauty so that their rejection of him makes them guilty:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 
Rom 1:19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 
Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So, they are without excuse. 

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #71]

All I have to say to you, @POI, is Paul's words in Romans 1:18-20, where he states that all humans have experienced God's revelation of himself as our Creator through the design and beauty so that their rejection of him makes them guilty:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 
Rom 1:19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 
Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So, they are without excuse. 

So basically, I'm a suppressive liar?

it's quite ironic that you should respond in this way as I just directly touched on this (topic) with another, in post 67. Feel free to answer the comments and question(s) posed to the other debater. Actually, I would hope that you do, being that they completely aborted the conversation -- as we are exploring as to whether or not belief is actually a free choice.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #73]

What, @POI? It doesn't have anything to do with lying. Paul is saying that humans are guilty before him as their Creator-Judge, because they do not acknowledge him as their Creator.

He goes on in Romans to say that all humans are worthy of his guilty verdict but that God has provided a way for them to be declared not-guilty and free of his just punishment through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection.

I'll look at that post.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

@POI, "faith" or "belief" includes a decision to follow God's ways through Jesus Christ. For example, Paul defines faith in Ephesians 2:1-10:

Eph 2:1  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 
Eph 2:2  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 
Eph 2:3  among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 
Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 
Eph 2:7  so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 
Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 
Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. 

I quote the whole passage in order to show you the context of verses 8-10.

In verses 1-3, Paul says that we were dead to God and controlled by Satan before he rescues us.

In verses 4-9, he says that God resurrects believers from their spiritual deadness (through the new birth), because he is supremely merciful, loving, and kind in giving us his gift of faith by his free acceptance (grace). Thus, we can do nothing to earn or deserve his rescue.

In verse 10, he gives us the result of his rescue, good works, which he has planned for us. Even those good works that Christians do are to God's credit, not theirs. Therefore, God saves us; we cannot in any sense save ourselves. Thus, belief also involves the good deeds that follow our God-enabled decision to trust in Jesus' death and resurrection to enter heaven.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #73]

What, @POI? It doesn't have anything to do with lying. Paul is saying that humans are guilty before him as their Creator-Judge, because they do not acknowledge him as their Creator.

Yes, it does have to do with lying. Romans 1:18-20 asserts that all human beings possess an inherent knowledge that God exists. The passage argues that God has made His existence, eternal power, and divine nature plain to everyone through the created universe. We apparently have no excuse for denying his existence as the "observable evidence is overwhelming". This would mean that the Bible is directly accusing me of being in pure denial of what I really believe, which is why Christians will also make statements such as, "there are no atheists in foxholes."

He goes on in Romans to say that all humans are worthy of his guilty verdict but that God has provided a way for them to be declared not-guilty and free of his just punishment through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection.

I'll look at that post.

I don't disagree. When the Apostle Paul writes in Romans. (specifically in passages like Romans 3:19-20 and Romans 3:23), that the whole world is accountable and guilty before God, he means that every single human being has failed and fallen short of God’s perfect standard. This is referring to 'sin', in that we are all born in, and continue in "sin". The entire Jesus-story revolves around a universal human scapegoat. Believe in him, and worship him, and you have a chance to be redeemed. However, many cannot do the second, which is to follow, if they cannot achieve the first, which is believe that he's real. Christians say belief is a free choice, but it is clearly not. We believe what convinces us. And being convinced is not a choice. God is apparently going to condemn individuals who do not believe, (and beyond), which is not even a choice.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #76]

Humanly speaking, @POI, whether or not you believe in God is a choice, but when we do trust in Jesus, we come to realize that God enables us to believe in him and motivates us to follow Jesus' teachings by the Holy Spirit's influence. For that reason, when we believe, it's 100% to God's credit.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #76]

Humanly speaking, @POI, whether or not you believe in God is a choice,

(2) things here...

1) You just showed me a verse which asserted we all believe, either publicly or secretly, via Romans 1:18-20; but the evidence is overwhelming. This would mean that we have no choice in the matter. We are instead all convinced that god is real. Which means I would not have the ability to freely choose not to believe.

2) I'm telling you I do not believe, and this is not by free choice. I'm telling you I do not believe in the Bible god just as I do not believe in Santa Clause. I used to believe in both, and now I no longer believe in either. Just as I cannot freely choose to again believe in Santa Claus, for obvious reasons, just replace the word (Santa Claus) and replace it with the word (god), and it is basically for the same exact rationale for which I do not believe.

but when we do trust in Jesus, we come to realize that God enables us to believe in him and motivates us to follow Jesus' teachings by the Holy Spirit's influence. For that reason, when we believe, it's 100% to God's credit.

Again, it is a 2-step process. You must first believe he is real before one can even consider whether or not one will follow. Satan has a head start over me. Which means his chances were even better than mine are now, as he at least believes the Bible god exists. I'm instead stuck in a non-starter position. And since you keep stating that belief involves MORE than merely acknowledging his existence, it sure seems quite odd he chooses to remain hidden so well. He sure is quite invisible.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #78]

Yes, God is invisible, @POI, but he has revealed himself as the all-powerful Creator through the divine design and beauty of his creation:

Psa 19:1  To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. 
Psa 19:2  Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. 
Psa 19:3  There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. 
Psa 19:4  Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, 
Psa 19:5  which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. 

And Paul's point in Romans 1 is that, yes, we have all experienced his creative power and majesty by observing his creation, but we have ignored or rejected him as its Source and are therefore guilty before him as our rightful Judge.

Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 
Rom 1:21  For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 

The only way we can escape his guilty verdict and his correct punishment is by trusting in Jesus as the only way to the Father's not-guilty verdict by way of his death and resurrection.

[POI]

[Replying to BruceLeiter in post #79]

To move this conversation forward, allow to see if this is your position?

Anytime the Bible speaks about "belief", the Bibe is not speaking about merely believing god exists, because the Bible asserts that we all know god already exists. To you, "belief" always involves both 1) awareness of god's existence, as well as 2) choosing whether or not one decides to follow god?