This thread is not to discuss many of the specifics about Christianity. Instead, it is to discuss one seemingly required element for salvation, which is belief. Sure, one can believe that the Bible god exists and still reject that believed upon god (and/or) be rejected by that god. But a fundamental and necessary element looks to be belief in this Bible god.
And sure, I guess a case could also be made that belief is NOT required too. This topic has already been examined here (viewtopic.php?t=39327). for anyone who cares to push back here -- (in that belief is not necessary or required).
And some others may argue that all humans secretly believe and that fundamental belief is already had by all.
All this aside, there exists a Christian populous who thinks that not all believe, and that the Bible god gives us free will to choose. Hence....
...For all intents and purposes, and to address the Christian folks who are under the impression that belief is a minimum requirement for salvation, I have a topic to propose.
For debate: Isn't the Bible god aware that true belief is not a choice?
Belief
Moderator: Moderators
-
POI
- Savant
- Posts: 6125
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 2189 times
- Been thanked: 1649 times
-
BruceLeiter
- Scholar
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2025 3:39 pm
- Been thanked: 12 times
Re: Belief
Post #81[Replying to POI in post #80]
Yes, that's right in many instances, especially in the Gospel of John and Paul's letters, @POI; but in the Book of James, "faith," a synonym to "belief," means instead "head knowledge." That's why James says that faith without works is dead. That is, it's not good enough to simply know about God, but John and Paul's kind of faith is God's gift of a personal trust and commitment to God through Jesus by the Spirit's power, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Yes, that's right in many instances, especially in the Gospel of John and Paul's letters, @POI; but in the Book of James, "faith," a synonym to "belief," means instead "head knowledge." That's why James says that faith without works is dead. That is, it's not good enough to simply know about God, but John and Paul's kind of faith is God's gift of a personal trust and commitment to God through Jesus by the Spirit's power, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
-
POI
- Savant
- Posts: 6125
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 2189 times
- Been thanked: 1649 times
Re: Belief
Post #82Okay, then the Bible is flat out wrong (again), as I believe in the existence of god about as much as I also "believe" in the existence of gnomes, fairies, ghosts, spirits, leprechauns, santa claus, etc..... But of course, I'm just supressing. I must really secretly believe in all these asserted invisible agencies.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
BruceLeiter
- Scholar
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2025 3:39 pm
- Been thanked: 12 times
Re: Belief
Post #83[Replying to POI in post #82]
No, @POI, I think that you are being truthful that you don't believe the Bible. But how can you be so sure that its history and teachings are false and untrue?
No, @POI, I think that you are being truthful that you don't believe the Bible. But how can you be so sure that its history and teachings are false and untrue?
-
POI
- Savant
- Posts: 6125
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 2189 times
- Been thanked: 1649 times
Re: Belief
Post #84Because the Bible says/asserts that I know god exists but really, I don't know that a god exists. This means the Bible is wrong.BruceLeiter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2026 4:37 pm [Replying to POI in post #82]
No, @POI, I think that you are being truthful that you don't believe the Bible. But how can you be so sure that its history and teachings are false and untrue?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
BruceLeiter
- Scholar
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2025 3:39 pm
- Been thanked: 12 times
Re: Belief
Post #85[Replying to POI in post #84]
The "knowledge" that Paul talks about in Romans 1:18-20 is only the exposure of God the Creator that all humans have to him through his creation because of its design and beauty, not a personal knowledge that humans have, because he goes on to say that everyone has rejected the Creator and are guilty before him as their Judge (the rest of the chapters until 3:20). He goes on to say that we all are guilty of rejecting God as our Creator unless we accept Jesus' death and resurrection as the only way to the Father's not-guilty verdict (3:21 and following).
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
The "knowledge" that Paul talks about in Romans 1:18-20 is only the exposure of God the Creator that all humans have to him through his creation because of its design and beauty, not a personal knowledge that humans have, because he goes on to say that everyone has rejected the Creator and are guilty before him as their Judge (the rest of the chapters until 3:20). He goes on to say that we all are guilty of rejecting God as our Creator unless we accept Jesus' death and resurrection as the only way to the Father's not-guilty verdict (3:21 and following).
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
