Belief

[POI]

This thread is not to discuss many of the specifics about Christianity. Instead, it is to discuss one seemingly required element for salvation, which is belief. Sure, one can believe that the Bible god exists and still reject that believed upon god (and/or) be rejected by that god. But a fundamental and necessary element looks to be belief in this Bible god.

And sure, I guess a case could also be made that belief is NOT required too. This topic has already been examined here (viewtopic.php?t=39327). for anyone who cares to push back here -- (in that belief is not necessary or required).

And some others may argue that all humans secretly believe and that fundamental belief is already had by all.

All this aside, there exists a Christian populous who thinks that not all believe, and that the Bible god gives us free will to choose. Hence....

...For all intents and purposes, and to address the Christian folks who are under the impression that belief is a minimum requirement for salvation, I have a topic to propose.

For debate: Isn't the Bible god aware that true belief is not a choice?

[Ray the atheist]

I don't choose what I think is true.

Who makes the choice for you?

I conclude that it is, or I don't.
I use the best method that I know of in order to find out.

Have you ever been wrong?

Yes

[Mr E]

[Replying to POI in post #59]

It's not avoidance on my part, but mischaracterization on your part. You seem to think you have some kind of a corner on logic, but you're falling short.

Once again, you present a false choice. You throw out a ridiculous premise-- "believe you are 9 feet tall" or "believe in Santa Claus" --two things provably false. Then you imagine that my inability to believe in those false things is a shortcoming. Nice try.

Let me know when you prove God false and then you can put Him into the category above. Better yet, examine a truth and then tell me how it is that a person can convince themselves to not believe it true. I'll give you an example. A man born a man, with all his man parts, who believes himself to be a woman. Is his belief a choice, or not?

[POI]

two things provably false. Then you imagine that my inability to believe in those false things is a shortcoming. Nice try.

To the bold, this is exactly the point when a young child no longer believes in Santa Claus, and it wasn't by free choice. It was when evidence, to the contrary of their prior held belief, which was likely held because they trusted the authority of their parent's words, ultimately took over. Thank you for demonstrating my point. You do not have a free choice to believe anything other than what convinces you. Belief is driven by being convinced, NOT by free choice.

Let me know when you prove God false and then you can put Him into the category above.

This topic is not about 'proving god false.' This topic is instead asking why this 'god' thinks belief is a choice, when we both agree that belief is not driven by a choice, but instead driven by what convinces you. And what convinces you is not by choice.

Better yet, examine a truth and then tell me how it is that a person can convince themselves to not believe it true. I'll give you an example. A man born a man, with all his man parts, who believes himself to be a woman. Is his belief a choice, or not?

LOL! I think you've been watching FOX news too much, as you seem to want to lump me into this narrative, just because I doubt the existence of a god you believe in. Again, being convinced is what drives a belief. And what convinces us is not by choice. If the individual is truly convinced about anything at all, this is what they will believe -- (logical or illogical).

[Mr E]

two things provably false. Then you imagine that my inability to believe in those false things is a shortcoming. Nice try.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. You do not have a free choice to believe anything other than what convinces you. Belief is driven by being convinced, NOT by choice.

Let me know when you prove God false and then you can put Him into the category above.

This topic is not about 'proving god false.' This topic is instead asking why this 'god' thinks belief is a choice, when we both agree that belief is not driven by a choice, but instead driven by what convinces you. And what convinces you is not by choice.

Better yet, examine a truth and then tell me how it is that a person can convince themselves to not believe it true. I'll give you an example. A man born a man, with all his man parts, who believes himself to be a woman. Is his belief a choice, or not?

LOL! I think you've been watching FOX news too much, as you seem to want to lump me into this narrative, just because I doubt the existence of a god you believe in. Again, being convinced is what drives a belief. And what convinces us is not by choice. If the individual is truly convinced about anything at all, this is what they will believe -- (logical or illogical).

That completely misstates my position. We do not agree.

"Belief" is most certainly a choice. It's the choice one must make when something empirical (evidentiary and convincing) is not presented.

[POI]

"Belief" is most certainly a choice. It's the choice one must make when something empirical (evidentiary and convincing) is not presented.

Then <your> position only gets even worse from here. The Bible makes the claim that "something empirically (evidentiary and convincing)" has been presented, ala Romans 1:18-20. In this regard, belief is not a free choice at all. In this regard, all apparently are believers and some just suppress. And yet, some earnestly do not believe. So, I guess you then have to ultimately accuse me, and some others, of being a suppressive liar?

Further, what you are also saying is that we have free choice when no empirical evidence exists. Which way do you wish to shoot yourself in the foot here? Do you:

a) Admit that assertions and claims made from the Bible are baseless and incorrect, (i.e. Rom. 1:18-20 for one example), and merit free choice because the "evidence" is not empirical after all?
b) Instead admit that we have empirical evidence here, in the Bible, which drives our belief un-freely?

Thank you for demonstrating the mental gymnastics, in trying to navigate the cited contradiction above, in a) vs. b), in which the believer must hold to in retaining this position.

[Mr E]

[Replying to POI in post #65]

Oy. We have a live one.

You know what "empirical" means right? Based on direct observation? So you cite from Romans which speaks of the invisible attributes of God, made visible through the fabric of His handiwork. That's badly missing the point. The obvious, observable point is that the visible, created things point to an unobservable, invisible Creator-- which leaves you a choice. You choose either to ignore the observable empirical evidence which points to God, or you imagine some meaningless, random cause without God. Your choice.

btw Romans 1 goes on to say this>> Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

You do you. I'll leave you to your vain imaginations.

[POI]

Oy. We have a live one.

Attempting to poison the well will not save you here.

You know what "empirical" means right? Based on direct observation?

Empirical evidence is information acquired through direct observation, experience, or systematic experimentation. It relies on tangible, real-world data rather than theory, intuition, or belief. This form of evidence can be independently tested, measured, and reproduced to prove or disprove a hypothesis.

And then we read here:

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse

So you cite from Romans which speaks of the invisible attributes of God, made visible through the fabric of His handiwork. That's badly missing the point.

Nope. You are avoiding the point. Based upon observable findings, we all "know" god exists. If you get confused, I listed the definition of empirical above.

The obvious, observable point is that the visible, created things point to an unobservable, invisible Creator-- which leaves you a choice.

Verse 20 states that no one is without excuse. Meaning, the empirical evidence drives the same unchosen conclusion/belief for all.

You choose either to ignore the observable empirical evidence which points to God, or you imagine some meaningless, random cause without God. Your choice.

The result is one in the same. Which is what I touched on prior. Which means I'm a secret believer who suppresses what I really believe. The Bible states the evidence leads to one obvious conclusion, that we all know the truth. The only free choice presented here, would be invoking (suppression, denial, or handwaving), but you cannot freely choose what we actually believe.

btw Romans 1 goes on to say this>> Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

BTW, like i told others... Yes, belief is the bare minimum. Even 'Satan' believes. But whether or not one decides to follow is another matter. But whether or not one follows is void of this topic, which is examining true belief. God seems to suggest that belief is a free choice, but it is not.

You do you. I'll leave you to your vain imaginations.

You already poisoned the well, doing more is merely beating a dead horse.

**********************************

Speaking of poison, please pick one:

a) Admit that assertions and claims made from the Bible are baseless and incorrect, (i.e. Rom. 1:18-20 for one example), and merit free choice because the "evidence" is not empirical after all?
b) Instead admit that we have empirical evidence here, in the Bible, which drives our belief un-freely?

[1213]

Have you ever been wrong?

Yes

Does that mean you chose to believe something that is not true?

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #68]

Does that mean you chose to believe something that is not true?

No.

It means I was wrong.
I can't remember any time in my life when I chose to be wrong.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #56]

@POI, the historical evidence is available to people in the Bible, but we are all born to reject such evidence. We need to turn away from our rejection and give our lives to him through Jesus by the Spirit as the one, only-true God. Then, we can believe and follow him. Sadly, most humans don't.