Belief

[POI]

This thread is not to discuss many of the specifics about Christianity. Instead, it is to discuss one seemingly required element for salvation, which is belief. Sure, one can believe that the Bible god exists and still reject that believed upon god (and/or) be rejected by that god. But a fundamental and necessary element looks to be belief in this Bible god.

And sure, I guess a case could also be made that belief is NOT required too. This topic has already been examined here (viewtopic.php?t=39327). for anyone who cares to push back here -- (in that belief is not necessary or required).

And some others may argue that all humans secretly believe and that fundamental belief is already had by all.

All this aside, there exists a Christian populous who thinks that not all believe, and that the Bible god gives us free will to choose. Hence....

...For all intents and purposes, and to address the Christian folks who are under the impression that belief is a minimum requirement for salvation, I have a topic to propose.

For debate: Isn't the Bible god aware that true belief is not a choice?

[Mr E]

[Replying to POI in post #50]

I believe you've proposed a false choice. In an attempt to paint Christians into a corner of your own making, you are suggesting that no free choice exists because one 'must' believe. Let me point out the problem with your premise.

It's not a matter of believing in something or not believing. Rather it's believing in something versus believing in something else.

It's not that a particular Christian believes (as a bare minimum requirement) and that such belief is not a choice because you say it's required. It remains a choice. You, or others can say 'you don't believe in God' yet you certainly believe other things. Thus all you've really done is chosen to believe something else. Your beliefs remain beliefs and in this respect you are no different than the Christians you castigate.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #50]

I believe you've proposed a false choice. In an attempt to paint Christians into a corner of your own making, you are suggesting that no free choice exists because one 'must' believe. Let me point out the problem with your premise.

I'm suggesting that belief, any true belief, is driven by factors outside of a free choice.

It's not a matter of believing in something or not believing. Rather it's believing in something versus believing in something else.

Regardless of the true belief, such beliefs are not freely chosen. To simply demonstrate the "believing in something else", and in the attempt in applying free choice, freely choose to believe you are 9-feet tall. I bet you can't freely choose to apply this belief.

It's not that a particular Christian believes (as a bare minimum requirement) and that such belief is not a choice because you say it's required. It remains a choice.

I no more have a free choice to believe in the Bible god, verses you simply choosing to no longer believe in the Bible god. The only way either of us will flip/flop our opposing 'beliefs' is by being convinced, and not instead by simply applying some free will choice to believe the opposite.

You, or others can say 'you don't believe in God' yet you certainly believe other things.

Of course, and none of those beliefs were freely chosen.

Thus all you've really done is chosen to believe something else.

Whatever true beliefs that are actually held are not by our own free will choice to do so.

Your beliefs remain beliefs and in this respect you are no different than the Christians you castigate.

I agree. Both are beliefs that are not freely chosen. And yet, the Bible god may be under the impression that belief IS a free choice?

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #50]

All I know, @POI, is that believing that God exists is not enough. Instead, in the Bible, real faith involves a personal commitment to the God of the Bible through Jesus.

[Mr E]

[Replying to POI in post #52]

You make strong assertions without basis. To make your points, one has to assume and accept your set of facts, except facts are what you lack. Instead you substitute your beliefs and present them as facts.

It's circular argument and otherwise known as "baseless claims" or "unfounded assertions."

Try harder to come up with some empirical evidence. What do you think supports your argument?

What do you choose to believe about free choice? That it simply doesn't exist?

I say it does, and I choose to believe it does. My proof is in my decision to choose.

[POI]

Try harder to come up with some empirical evidence. What do you think supports your argument?

I gave support, and you skipped it. Please freely choose to believe you are 9 feet tall. I bet you cannot do it. Or, if you don't like that one, please freely choose to believe in Santa Claus. the point in these two examples is one-in-the-same, you couldn't freely choose to do it, even if you wanted to.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #50]

All I know, @POI, is that believing that God exists is not enough. Instead, in the Bible, real faith involves a personal commitment to the God of the Bible through Jesus.

A lot more people would do what you stated if they simply believed he really existed. Which then means more would go to Heaven. Since believe is not a choice, why doesn't god just either 1) make all believe 2) or present sufficient evidence to convince all? At which point, all would at least be at the same starting point as 'Satan'.

[Mr E]

[Replying to POI in post #55]

Please freely choose to believe you are 9 feet tall. I bet you cannot do it. Or, if you don't like that one, please freely choose to believe in Santa Claus.

I choose not to.

[SiNcE_1985]

All this is, is (whining and cope). The fundamental question remains... Since beliefs are not a choice, then why does the presumed almighty believe that it is a choice?

1. Belief is not a choice <----false premise.

So, whatever conclusion maintained after this false premise, is also false.

Or, does he instead know that belief is not a choice, but that the bare minimum for salvation requires an attribute unchosen?

Proposition(s)^ maintained after false premise.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #55]

Please freely choose to believe you are 9 feet tall. I bet you cannot do it. Or, if you don't like that one, please freely choose to believe in Santa Claus.

I choose not to.

Avoidance won't save you. You know you cannot freely choose to believe in a new height, or Santa, because belief is not a free choice. Just like I have no free choice to believe that an invisible postmortem Jesus really exists.

[1213]

I don't choose what I think is true.

Who makes the choice for you?

I conclude that it is, or I don't.
I use the best method that I know of in order to find out.

Have you ever been wrong?