Belief

[POI]

This thread is not to discuss many of the specifics about Christianity. Instead, it is to discuss one seemingly required element for salvation, which is belief. Sure, one can believe that the Bible god exists and still reject that believed upon god (and/or) be rejected by that god. But a fundamental and necessary element looks to be belief in this Bible god.

And sure, I guess a case could also be made that belief is NOT required too. This topic has already been examined here (viewtopic.php?t=39327). for anyone who cares to push back here -- (in that belief is not necessary or required).

And some others may argue that all humans secretly believe and that fundamental belief is already had by all.

All this aside, there exists a Christian populous who thinks that not all believe, and that the Bible god gives us free will to choose. Hence....

...For all intents and purposes, and to address the Christian folks who are under the impression that belief is a minimum requirement for salvation, I have a topic to propose.

For debate: Isn't the Bible god aware that true belief is not a choice?

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to William in post #36]

" Do you believe this? You believe there is no difference?

Can you show this to being the case? (Explain why you believe this is true).

Yes, I believe my statement to be a true one.
Yes, I believe that your statement means the same as my own.

I used my understanding of the English language to decide.

[William]

[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #41]

Yes, I believe my statement to be a true one.

So, you don't know if it is a true statement but you do believe it is.

Yes, I believe that your statement means the same as my own.

So, you don't know if my statement means the same as yours, but you do believe it is.

I used my understanding of the English language to decide.

So, you choose to believe that your understanding of (and faith in) the English language is correct.

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #38]

Being that you know beliefs are not a choice, I'll just let you feel 'special' in this response.

Leave Christianity alone, sir.

You've decided not to accept it, and that's fine.

Countless threads about it, year after year...what are you doing?

[POI]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #43]

Nothing worthy to respond to here... Which obviously means you have no rebuttal for the debate topic. The Bible author(s) posted up 'belief' as a bare minimum for salvation. And yet, true belief is not even a choice.

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #43]

Nothing worthy to respond to here... Which obviously means you have no rebuttal for the debate topic. The Bible author(s) posted up 'belief' as a bare minimum for salvation. And yet, true belief is not even a choice.

Ok, then the belief in evolution is not even a choice.

*Shrugs*.

Who cares, either you find the evidence to be convincing, or you don't.

You don't. That's cool. Then don't believe.

Leave Christianity alone. Enjoy your godless life, and be happy .

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to William in post #42]

" I used my understanding of the English language to decide.

So, you choose to believe that your understanding of (and faith in) the English language is correct."
_______________________________________

I don't choose what I believe.

I believe something only when I think it's true.
I have no choice to think that something is true.

I understand the English language.
I can misunderstand or understand the message.

If I don't think I know that the message is, I don't pretend to understand it, and I don't say that I do.
IF I think I understand some English sentence, then, of course I believe that I understand it.

I use all kinds of methods to know if something is true or not.
At all times, I can be wrong anyway.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #45]

Leave Christianity alone. Enjoy your godless life, and be happy

It's as if you believe that Christianity has feelings that can be hurt.
Humans have feelings.
You seem to be a Christian.

I think that you are telling us that your feelings are hurt when someone disparages your religion.

[POI]

Ok, then the belief in evolution is not even a choice.

*Shrugs*.

Who cares, either you find the evidence to be convincing, or you don't.

You don't. That's cool. Then don't believe.

Leave Christianity alone. Enjoy your godless life, and be happy .

All this is, is (whining and cope). The fundamental question remains... Since beliefs are not a choice, then why does the presumed almighty believe that it is a choice? Or, does he instead know that belief is not a choice, but that the bare minimum for salvation requires an attribute unchosen?

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

It's important to discover the Bible's definition of the word "belief" or "faith," not our own meaning. Paul gives us a description of the truth of "faith."

Eph 2:1  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 
Eph 2:2  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 
Eph 2:3  among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 
Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 
Eph 2:7  so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 
Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 
Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. 

(1) Verses 1-3: Before we had faith in God, we were born dead to him by our own desires.
(2) Then, in verses 4-9, God made believers alive to him through his gift of faith by his free acceptance (grace), not by any of our actions to earn it.
(3) Part of the gift of faith is its actions in which we begin following God's ways instead of our own (verse 10).

[POI]

[Replying to BruceLeiter in post #49]

As I told another, basic belief is the bare minimum. Meaning, you must at least believe he exists. Many do not think he does. In this regard, such belief presents as the bare minimum, let-alone whether or not one wishes to follow or reject him thereafter--- such a 'Satan' or others.

Wouldn't god know that such belief in his existent is not a free choice? If I do not believe he is real, to then still decide whether or not I apply faith in him becomes an illogical non-starter.