"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #442]

However, Jesus equated the words of the prophets with the very word of God and submitted himself to the Scriptures (Mt 4:4, 7, 10; 5:17-20; 19:4-6; 26:31, 52-54; Lk 4:16-21; 16:17; 18:31-33; 22:37; 24:25-27, 45-47; Jn 10:35-38). He also drew a qualitative distinction between “word of God” and “the tradition of the elders” (Mt 15:2, 6). Yet the words of Christ and his apostles in Scripture are also the very word of God for the new covenant era: “God-breathed” and therefore sufficient (2 Tim 3:16). The Old and New Testaments form the biblical canon—like a constitution—that cannot be altered (Dt 4:2; 12:32; Rev 22:18-19).

Matt. 4:4. Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.
7. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.
10. Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

Where in these verses did Jesus equate the words written in the bible today to the word of God, which is the Lord Jesus Christ alone? The word that comes from the mouth of God can only be heard and learned from the real and forever living Christ Jesus alone, not from the bible.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #441]

What we do have in the scriptures is the 12 having authority over the Church,

Jesus alone is the sole authority in His church, and everybody is on par with each other as brethren to one another.

Thus saith the Lord:

'And remember, in My church, no one will stand to explain the holy scriptures or lead people as they explain, and they will stand as pastors, because in My church, I am the only Pastor who stands before you. Remember, when two or three discuss Me without any argument, I am in their midst.'

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #450]

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.'

Jesus does not say there is a problem with scripture. In fact, Jesus says, the scripture testifies about Him. So then, it was not the scripture, which was the problem, rather it was the people who searched the scripture in order to find out what they needed to do (works) in order to have eternal life. Jesus is speaking to the Jewish people at the time and is saying, "these same scriptures testify about Me" the only way to eternal life. In other words, Jesus is encouraging these Jewish people at the time, to let go of their own efforts of gaining eternal life and rather come to Him Who is Life. Its works vs. grace.

Obviously, we do not have eternal life in the scriptures because eternal life, as well as salvation, resides only in the Lord Jesus Christ

No one is saying we have eternal life in the scriptures. Rather, like Jesus, we are saying Jesus who is life, and our salvation is revealed in scripture, and you, nor anyone else would have ever known, nor heard of the Name Jesus, if it had not been for the work of the apostles and the scripture.

hence, we need to come to Him for us to have life

This is true, but coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Christ directly.

Therefore, the bible is not a prerequisite to our salvation and eternal life.

The scripture is the way in which you learn of salvation and eternal life through Jesus, and the way in which you know anything at all about any of these things is because of what is contained in the Bible.

No one gets saved in reading and studying the bible alone

No one gets saved by reading the Bible, PERIOD! Like you, we all learn of the works Jesus preformed on our behalf, and we come to Jesus for our salvation. But again, coming to Jesus has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Jesus directly.

Let's give thanks and praises only to the real and forever living Christ Jesus, the only Savior of all.

We should also give Christ Jesus thanks and praise for the revealed Word to us all, outside of us, because this is the only way we would have ever known of the great salvation, He has provided.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #453]

Jesus is speaking to the Jewish people at the time and is saying, "these same scriptures testify about Me" the only way to eternal life. In other words, Jesus is encouraging these Jewish people at the time, to let go of their own efforts of gaining eternal life and rather come to Him Who is Life. Its works vs. grace.

What works vs. grace are you talking about when Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders that they don't have eternal life in the scriptures, which testify of Him; hence, they need to come to Him to have life?

No one is saying we have eternal life in the scriptures.

Many in this forum think eternal life can be found in the scriptures.

Rather, like Jesus, we are saying Jesus who is life, and our salvation is revealed in scripture,

The scriptures are testimonies to the Lord Jesus, not as a revealer of the Lord God Jesus Christ to the people, which you fabricated to suit your opinion of the scriptures.

and you, nor anyone else would have ever known, nor heard of the Name Jesus, if it had not been for the work of the apostles and the scripture.

That is a false assumption and opinion since Jesus is Immanuel, who is with us at all times. Jesus reveals Himself by Himself, not by the bible.

This is true, but coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Christ directly.

What???????????? If I come to and call on RealworldJack, will I not hear him speak to me when he responds? Is RealworldJack not a real person?

The scripture is the way in which you learn of salvation

Saying, 'the scripture is the way in which you learn of salvation,' is a big lie since the Lord Jesus alone is the only way for us to learn how to be saved, not the bible, per se. The bible has nothing to do with the way Jesus rewarded salvation to His sheep.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

Remember, eternal life and your salvation are in My hands. If you want to be saved, come and draw near to Me. If you want eternal life, come and call upon Me. Trust in Me, because if you don't, you will have no salvation and no eternal life. You will have nowhere to go but to calamity and suffering. But if you draw near to Me, you will attain nothing but peace – peace if you accept it, if you trust in Me, if you believe in Me with all your heart and all your love. Love Me with all your heart, and worship none other but Me, the one and only Lord.

and eternal life through Jesus, and the way in which you know anything at all about any of these things is because of what is contained in the Bible.

The bible can't teach you the way to your salvation because the Lord alone is the one who will do that to you should you come to Him for your salvation, which the bible can't give you. Do not attach the bible to your salvation.

No one gets saved by reading the Bible, PERIOD!

Relax and cheer! That would be fine if you remained on course.

Like you, we all learn of the works Jesus preformed on our behalf, and we come to Jesus for our salvation. But again, coming to Jesus has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Jesus directly.

What then is coming to Jesus [in your illusion] if it has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Him directly? How can you be saved if you will not hear Jesus? How will Jesus guide you and reward you with salvation if you will not undergo His shepherding?

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

Remember, at all times when you need help, I am always by your side. Whether you are with Me or not, I am always by your side, shining light on your path so you can see the light and more clearly see the way to the kingdom of heaven if you return to Me, turn away from your evil deeds, and follow in My footsteps, following the Light of the world. Remember, I am your Lord God, a jealous God, so worship none other but Me. Call upon no other name in times of need but Mine, and I will lift you up from wherever you are, and you will attain nothing but blessings if I permit it.

We should also give Christ Jesus thanks and praise for the revealed Word to us all, outside of us, because this is the only way we would have ever known of the great salvation, He has provided.

Don't you see yourself praising Jesus with your right hand and then piercing Him with your sword with your left hand afterwards? You don't see the gravity of your statement above, do you?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #451]

Where in these verses did Jesus equate the words written in the bible today

You need to go back and read more carefully. The author said nothing at all about "the Bible today." Rather, he referred to the scripture just as Jesus did. You know, the scripture which testifies of Him? What is contained in the Bible today, is the scriptures Jesus was referring to, along with the NT which is responsible for you even knowing anything at all about Jesus.

which is the Lord Jesus Christ alone

This is true, however, you would have never known nor heard of Jesus if it had not been for what is contained in the Bible.

The word that comes from the mouth of God can only be heard and learned from the real and forever living Christ Jesus alone, not from the bible.

You can continue to say this all you want, but it remains to be a fact that you, nor anyone else in the world today would have known anything about Jesus had it not been for what is contained in the Bible. Notice carefully, I am not saying the Bible. Rather, I am saying, "what is contained in the Bible."

Jesus alone is the sole authority in His church, and everybody is on par with each other as brethren to one another.

Jesus gave authority to the apostles when He gave them the command to "go into all nations preaching the gospel" and he also gave the apostles the keys to the kingdom of heaven with authority to loose, and bind. These same apostles went on to plant Churches in which they had authority from Christ, and these apostles went on to place pastors in authority over the Churches. In fact, we know that the Apostle John had disciples, and some of these disciples went on the be pastors of Churches and became what we refer to as "early Church Fathers."

'And remember, in My church, no one will stand to explain the holy scriptures or lead people as they explain, and they will stand as pastors, because in My church, I am the only Pastor who stands before you. Remember, when two or three discuss Me without any argument, I am in their midst.'

This is what you say, with absolutely no authority whatsoever from Christ, while those we know have authority from Christ say something completely different.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #454]

What works vs. grace are you talking about when Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders that they don't have eternal life in the scriptures, which testify of Him; hence, they need to come to Him to have life?

We can keep saying the same thing over, and over if you like, but it is a fact that Jesus told the Jewish people at the time that "it is these same scriptures which you search which testify of Me." Ergo, Jesus was revealed in the scripture, which means the way to eternal life was revealed in scripture, since these same scripture testify about Jesus who has the keys to eternal life.

Many in this forum think eternal life can be found in the scriptures.

There is a tremendous difference between saying "we have eternal life in the scripture" which is what you initially said, as opposed to what you are saying above which is, "eternal life can be found in the scripture." If Jesus was correct that the scriptures testify about Him, and eternal life can only be found in Him, then eternal life can be found in scripture, and it is the scripture which is responsible for you ever hearing the Name of Christ.

The scriptures are testimonies to the Lord Jesus, not as a revealer of the Lord God Jesus Christ to the people, which you fabricated to suit your opinion of the scriptures.

Allow me to explain this to you. We know for a fact that Jesus made promises to the apostles which He chose, and He gave these apostles authority, and these apostles gave their lives up on this earth in order for the world to know the Name of Christ, and the salvation that is in Christ. You on the other hand, have absolutely no authority whatsoever, and you are contradicting those whom Christ left in authority. It is that simple. We have the revealed word to us all in the scripture, which testifies of Jesus, and Jesus referred to these same scriptures, and also submitted to these scriptures.

That is a false assumption and opinion since Jesus is Immanuel, who is with us at all times. Jesus reveals Himself by Himself, not by the bible.

Allow me to say it again. You, nor anyone who is alive today, would know anything at all about Jesus, His life, death, or resurrection if it had not been for the work of the apostles, whom Jesus left in authority, along with the scriptures.

What???????????? If I come to and call on RealworldJack, will I not hear him speak to me when he responds? Is RealworldJack not a real person?

I said, "coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Jesus directly," and you respond with the above, which again has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Jesus directly.

Saying, 'the scripture is the way in which you learn of salvation,' is a big lie since the Lord Jesus alone is the only way for us to learn how to be saved, not the bible, per se. The bible has nothing to do with the way Jesus rewarded salvation to His sheep.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

Remember, eternal life and your salvation are in My hands. If you want to be saved, come and draw near to Me. If you want eternal life, come and call upon Me. Trust in Me, because if you don't, you will have no salvation and no eternal life. You will have nowhere to go but to calamity and suffering. But if you draw near to Me, you will attain nothing but peace – peace if you accept it, if you trust in Me, if you believe in Me with all your heart and all your love. Love Me with all your heart, and worship none other but Me, the one and only Lord.

Again, the apostles were given authority by Christ Himself, and the apostles preformed signs, wonders, and miracles which were documented, which goes on to confirm the authority they were given, as opposed to you who has no authority whatsoever.

The bible can't teach you the way to your salvation because the Lord alone is the one who will do that to you should you come to Him for your salvation, which the bible can't give you. Do not attach the bible to your salvation.

Again, so says you, who has no authority in the least, as opposed to Paul who was given authority by Christ, who performed signs, wonders, and miracles which were documented by one who traveled with Paul, and it was this Paul who told Timothy,

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

So then, the one with authority tells Timothy that the scripture is "able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work," while the one who has no authority whatsoever, tells us something totally different.

What then is coming to Jesus [in your illusion] if it has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Him directly?

It has to do with letting go of my own efforts, and trusting in the work of Christ alone for salvation, and there is no requirement to hear from Jesus directly.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

Remember, at all times when you need help, I am always by your side. Whether you are with Me or not, I am always by your side, shining light on your path so you can see the light and more clearly see the way to the kingdom of heaven if you return to Me, turn away from your evil deeds, and follow in My footsteps, following the Light of the world. Remember, I am your Lord God, a jealous God, so worship none other but Me. Call upon no other name in times of need but Mine, and I will lift you up from wherever you are, and you will attain nothing but blessings if I permit it.

I am just telling you that you are wasting a whole lot of time an effort, because you have no authority in the least, and it would be foolish for anyone to listen to you (and I highly doubt anyone is) as opposed to those we know for certain had authority from Christ to speak on His behalf.

Don't you see yourself praising Jesus with your right hand and then piercing Him with your sword with your left hand afterwards? You don't see the gravity of your statement above, do you?

What I see is someone who is typing useless words, who has no authority in the least.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #0]
Where exactly have I 'ranted' about those who follow the doctrine of man?

If you feel like I am on a 'high horse', I think that might be on you, Jack.

Below are your own words,

"This is a doctrine of men - men who interpreted this from the bible. Men who CANNOT have learned that interpretation from Christ or God - because according to you and them, Christ does not speak. And so they MUST have interpreted this based on their OWN reasoning (including their own biases, their own 'deceitful hearts' - what do you think influences you when you are relying upon yourself and your own interpretations/knowledge?)"

"The men or religion who teach that doctrine also could not have learned it from Him."

So where is the rant?

More than that, what is false about what I said?

**Keep in mind that you are the one who brought up 'deceitful hearts' in relation to someone like me (who listens to Christ, the Spirit). I just turned and asked the same question of people like you (who interpret the bible.)

The above is just a couple of examples. You have gone on to talk about how you were influenced by others, and how you had to "tear it all down,"

How is that a rant? How is that a 'high horse'?

If you build your house on anything other than the Rock (Christ) - when the wind and storms come - that house will fall.

Matt 7:24-27

So yeah, if a person is interested in building their house upon that Rock (Christ), then they may indeed need to tear everything down that man/religion has taught them - right down to that foundation (Christ), then let Him build them back up upon Him, upon the Truth.

You insist the scripture is not sufficient, which goes on to mean that those of us who depend on the scriptures do not really have Christ.

Scripture testifies about the Messiah.

But we're supposed to come to Him.

I don't know why some people think that a book about someone is better than the living person, Himself. Easier maybe (walking by sight), but how can a book replace the Living Word of God, the Son of God?

The book did not give its life for you.

The book is not the Truth.

The book is not alive.

Christ gave His life for us.

Christ is the Truth.

Christ is alive.

God said - even in that book - to listen to His Son.

I did not get the idea that 'I have a direct line to Christ' from another person.

I got the idea that Christ could speak in the first place from the witness another person gave.

Now, I know you are on a far higher plain than I am, and with this being the case, you are going to have to explain the difference between the two above.

The first is someone telling me that "I have a direct line to Christ" - and me believing it simply because they said so.

The second is someone testifying that 'Christ speaks' - leaving it up to me what I do with that.

I then also read where He said His sheep would listen to His voice.

We have also read where Jesus said, "I am the vine and you are the branches" but we do not go around acting like actual branches, now do we?

We do act like actual sheep with our Shepherd. He feeds and calls us, we follow and listen to Him.

Take the following verse for example:

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.

Is Christ talking about literal sheep?
Did He literally give His life? Yes!

Sheep is a metaphor (an apt one, because He is our Shepherd and we both listen to and follow Him), but the action is literal.

Same as with 'my sheep hear my voice." Sheep is the metaphor (apt), but the action is literal.

I read where He did indeed speak after His death and resurrection and ascension.

You continue to fail to demonstrate how reading (in the scriptures btw) about those in Biblical times heard from Jesus translates into we should hear from Jesus as well?

For one - there is absolutely no reason to think that Christ stopped speaking to His sheep. He SAID straight out that He had more to call, that they too would listen to His voice. He continued to call and speak to more than just the apostles throughout what is written after His death and resurrection and ascension.

He certainly never said He would stop speaking or calling His sheep by name.

Men on the other hand - men who do not hear His voice - they are the ones claiming He does not speak.

Of course, the kicker is that these men did not learn that from Him. They could not have.

In the meantime, I would continue to serve and obey God and His Son as best as I could.

What sort of service does God, and or Christ need from you?

What sort of service does God and/or Christ need from anyone?

It is my Lord who reminded me of the times it had been Him speaking to me when I was a child (and older) before I ever even considered the possibility that He could speak.

It kind of makes me wonder why the Lord waited so long to do this sort of thing? Was there something preventing Christ from being able to do it earlier?

Yeah, me, my lack of understanding.

Even though the evidence (that could be seen, from what is written) had been right there in front of my face all along.

You mean the scriptures which have scribal errors?

Sure.

I know that my Lord lives and speaks and that His sheep listen to His voice.

I know that Oral Roberts believed that. I know that Keneth Copeland believes that. I know that Benny Hin believes that. I know that Paula White believes that. All of these folks believe they are hearing directly from God. Would you agree this is the case?[/quote]

I have heard the name Benny Hin, and Paula White. I don't know anything about them, and I haven't heard of the other two people all.

And all I have to do is to "ask for ears to hear?" That's it?

If that is something you want, then why not ask?

But He is not dead. He is alive. He is a living being - the living WORD of God.

Agreed!

He lives. He speaks. Just as He said He would.

He is alive, and He has spoken, and continues to speak through the power of the Holy Spirit, through the means He has ordained,

You keep making this claim - "the means He has ordained." Where did He state that He would speak through the bible?

And while you want to keep stating that His words only applied to the apostles (even though He said 'whoever', instead of just 'you')... He is most certainly not speaking only to the apostles here:

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

This is SO, SO, FUNNY! This verse is coming from Revelations, and you and I both agree that we cannot interpret Revelations, and yet here you are even with a direct line to Christ admitting you have no idea what is being said, insisting it is a fact that this verse must apply to you.

1 - just because I cannot interpret, myself, does not mean that my Lord cannot reveal the meaning of something

2 - the point is that Christ is speaking to more people than the apostles when He says that they can hear His voice.

His words apply to more than just the apostles - and again, we can know that for a fact because even though He had the last supper with just the 12, and spoke those commands (eat and drink) to the 12, that these words applied to the rest of the disciples and Christians as well.

Okay, well let us see what else in this very same passage would apply to you?

Jesus says to this Church, "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot." Does that apply to you Tammy?

I have been there.

Are you guilty of being lukewarm?

I have been.

Jesus goes on the say, "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." Does this apply to you?

This is a rebuke - discipline. It is not a done deal. The verse actually states:

So—because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit you out of My mouth;

He goes on to tell the people in this church what they must do so this does not happen:

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.

Is Jesus going to "vomit you out of His mouth? As we continue, would this apply to you as well? "Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked."

Again, I have been there.

Yeah! You see, again, you want to pick and choose those things in these passages which apply to you, while rejecting what you do not prefer.

Nope. I accepted the discipline that was for me when it applied.

That discipline is not there to condemn anyone. It is there to show people what they are lacking, what they are in danger of, so that they can turn and repent.

He rebukes and disciplines those He loves - as He said.

At any rate, allow me to share with you a commentary on this very same passage from the web,

"The idea of Jesus standing at a door and knocking is often used as an illustration of Jesus’ offer of salvation to individuals: if you would only “open your heart’s door” and let Jesus into your life, all will be well. But in Revelation 3:20, Jesus is not pleading with an individual to be saved; He’s seeking admittance to a church! It’s alarming to think of Jesus standing outside of the church and knocking, but that’s the position He was in. The Laodicean church had shut the door on the Head of the church; they were smug in their prosperity, but Jesus was left standing in the cold. He was an outsider to the hearts of the entire congregation."

So then, according to this commentary, the knocking on the door here was the door of the Laodicean church and it has nothing whatsoever to do with you,

The church (the Bride) is made up of individuals.

The knocking on the door is not the problem. The problem is the stuff that came before (thinking oneself rich, not needing a thing, being lukewarm, being in danger of being spat out of His mouth.)

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

If you have the same boss, yes.

I have the same boss (Master, Lord) as the apostles.

Nice try Tammy. However, all you have done is to demonstrate my point, which is the context which you ignore. Because you see, in this context, it does not matter if you and the apostles have the same boss. Rather, what matters is, whether myself, and my wife have the same boss, and we do not.

I'm not sure you realize what you are saying.

The apostles - and others who belong to Christ - have the same boss.

Are you suggesting otherwise?

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #436]

I know that it is possible for others to come to Him and to ask for ears to hear as well. Because this happened for me.

And as you have also said in passing, you wouldn't expect that this means they have to hear a voice in their head calling itself Christ. You have agreed in principle that there are any number of ways someone can have "ears to hear"...

Still waiting for your reply to this tam.

Still waiting for your reply to this tam.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #456]

Jesus was revealed in the scripture, which means the way to eternal life was revealed in scripture,

That's not what Jesus told the Jewish leaders, but this narrative where he said, 'yet you refuse to come to me to have life.' Don't supersede what Jesus said with your opinion [the way to eternal life was revealed in scripture], which did not come from the mouth of the Lord as far as verse 40 is concerned.

since these same scripture testify about Jesus who has the keys to eternal life.

Jesus directly told the Jewish leaders that they refused to come to Him to have life, without any linkage or anchorage to the bible as far as eternal life is the issue. Don't anchor salvation and eternal life in the bible.

There is a tremendous difference between saying "we have eternal life in the scripture" which is what you initially said, as opposed to what you are saying above which is, "eternal life can be found in the scripture."

What????? Where did I say eternal life can be found in the scripture? My stand is that eternal life cannot be found in the scriptures; neither can you find in it how the Lord rewards His sheep with salvation and eternal life.

If Jesus was correct that the scriptures testify about Him, and eternal life can only be found in Him, then eternal life can be found in scripture, and it is the scripture which is responsible for you ever hearing the Name of Christ.

This is a convoluted doctrine you quoted above. Why would you use the 'If' clause when the scriptures absolutely testify about the Lord Jesus? Also, since eternal life resides only in the Lord Jesus, why do you say eternal life can be found in the scriptures? Are the scriptures, per se, the Lord Jesus Christ? And how do you say the scripture is responsible for my hearing the name of Christ? Does Christ have no mouth to speak to me? Indirectly, you're making the bible the Lord Jesus Christ in this issue.

Allow me to explain this to you. We know for a fact that Jesus made promises to the apostles which He chose, and He gave these apostles authority

What specific authority was that?

and these apostles gave their lives up on this earth in order for the world to know the Name of Christ,

You're not a witness to any of them, are you? Their main task is to make all nations His disciples, so with the future disciples unto the end.

and the salvation that is in Christ.

Salvation, per se, is not on their bucket list since it is under the Lord's authority.

You on the other hand, have absolutely no authority whatsoever, and you are contradicting those whom Christ left in authority.

You've witnessed nothing from the apostles, and from us, yet you continue to fabricate your so-called authority given to them by the Lord. What authority would the Lord grant them when everybody in the flock of the Lord is on par with one another, and the Lord alone is their Leader, Pastor, and Teacher?

It is that simple. We have the revealed word to us all in the scripture, which testifies of Jesus, and Jesus referred to these same scriptures, and also submitted to these scriptures.

What lies are you talking about in here? Why would Jesus submit Himself to the scriptures, as you illusioned, when His call to all, not only to the Jewish leaders, is for all to come to Him to have life? Jesus is above and higher than the scriptures.

Allow me to say it again. You, nor anyone who is alive today, would know anything at all about Jesus, His life, death, or resurrection if it had not been for the work of the apostles, whom Jesus left in authority, along with the scriptures.

That is a big lie and crucifying Jesus again and again. Jesus is beside you all the time, and He alone is the one who can reveal Himself to you, not the bible, which you perpetually make Jesus and God, as if it were the infallible and forever living God.

I said, "coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Jesus directly," and you respond with the above, which again has nothing whatsoever to do with hearing from Jesus directly.

You do not even understand what you're saying with this response. What then is coming to Jesus in your convoluted doctrine?

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

So then, the one with authority tells Timothy that the scripture is "able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work," while the one who has no authority whatsoever, tells us something totally different.

The Lord Jesus alone is the sole authority in everything, not Paul, whom you now make higher and above the Lord Jesus, who does not teach what Paul told Timothy about the scriptures; Jesus defines the scriptures as testimonies to Him. Paul has no authority whatsoever over the sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It has to do with letting go of my own efforts, and trusting in the work of Christ alone for salvation, and there is no requirement to hear from Jesus directly.

Where did you learn that notion from, which, if we correlate to what Jesus teaches today, will appear as falsity? How could you have eternal life
by letting go of your own efforts and trusting in the work of Christ alone for salvation, and there is no requirement to hear from Jesus directly? Where do you think Jesus uttered those things you fabricated on your own?

I am just telling you that you are wasting a whole lot of time an effort, because you have no authority in the least,

I claim no authority at all, do I? Why do you have to caution me with that lies?

and it would be foolish for anyone to listen to you (and I highly doubt anyone is) as opposed to those we know for certain had authority from Christ to speak on His behalf.

I don't urge anyone to listen to me but to Christ alone - come to and call on the Lord Jesus and listen to Him when He responds. Let me clarify that once and for all.

You know nothing about Christ since you've heard nothing from Him yet, as evidenced by your truckload of narratives. No one, not even Moses, Paul, Peter, and the rest of the messengers of God, had been given authority by the Lord God to speak on His behalf, as you wrongly opined and illusioned.

What I see is someone who is typing useless words, who has no authority in the least

You even bark at the wrong tree this time.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #455]

Rather, he referred to the scripture just as Jesus did.

Okay, where did Jesus equate the scripture to the word of God? What exactly did Jesus say?

You know, the scripture which testifies of Him?

Okay, the scripture is not the bible, as you said.

What is contained in the Bible today, is the scriptures Jesus was referring to,

You have just said, 'You need to go back and read more carefully. The author said nothing at all about "the Bible today." Rather, he referred to the scripture just as Jesus did.' I thought it was the scripture, not the bible today? Which is which?

along with the NT which is responsible for you even knowing anything at all about Jesus.

You're making the bible here, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one responsible for revealing Himself to anyone whom He wishes to at any time. Don't put the Lord Jesus in a box.

This is true, however, you would have never known nor heard of Jesus if it had not been for what is contained in the Bible.

The bible is a book of testimonies to Jesus, not a revealer of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you want to be saved, come to Jesus and follow Him until the end. Even without the bible, the Lord Jesus can be known to the world at any time through Himself, not through the bible.

You can continue to say this all you want, but it remains to be a fact that you, nor anyone else in the world today would have known anything about Jesus had it not been for what is contained in the Bible.

This is a big lie since the bible came later after the Son of God was lifted. The Lord said that Adam and Eve knew the name Jesus through Him, and He cautioned them not to use the name Jesus for the names of their offspring, and their offspring's offspring. Jesus is forever living, and He's not dead for you to fabricate lies about the role of the bible, which Jesus does not teach to His sheep.

Notice carefully, I am not saying the Bible. Rather, I am saying, "what is contained in the Bible."

Whatever you say, it all boils down to the bible. You can't have what is contained in the bible without the bible itself.

Jesus gave authority to the apostles when He gave them the command to "go into all nations preaching the gospel" and he also gave the apostles the keys to the kingdom of heaven with authority to loose, and bind. These same apostles went on to plant Churches in which they had authority from Christ, and these apostles went on to place pastors in authority over the Churches. In fact, we know that the Apostle John had disciples, and some of these disciples went on the be pastors of Churches and became what we refer to as "early Church Fathers."

You're fabricating lies here because Jesus never ordained anyone as pastor or teacher in His flock. It's only your illusion that tells that.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

'And remember, in My church, no one will stand to explain the holy scriptures or lead people as they explain, and they will stand as pastors, because in My church, I am the only Pastor who stands before you. Remember, when two or three discuss Me without any argument, I am in their midst.'