"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #308]

I am bearing witness to the Living Christ - whether some hear, or refrain.

Wouldn't it be fair to say you are bearing witness about the slave that you are?

Why do you say that, William?

I am not pointing at myself. I am pointing toward my Lord. Bearing witness to Him.

**

Just going to share a very simple (and hopefully safe) example. Please do not take offense (whoever might take offense.)

When my cat was still pretty much a kitten, I would catch sight of a rabbit or bird outside. I knew she would like to see it (not that I would let her outside, but from the window.)

So the first time it happened, I said "Abby, look, a bunny. Look, look!" I was pointing out the window at the rabbit (or bird.)

Of course she just looked at me (I'm the one making the noise and moving about, she doesn't understand.)

Then I think I patted the couch and she jumped up and caught sight of the rabbit herself. I think this took one more time (maybe two)... but now she comes when I said "Look" and she goes to where I am pointing and she looks at THAT.

The point is - she knows there is something for her to see - and that something is not me.



Peace again to you

[tam]

Peace again to you, and to you all,

[Replying to tam in post #308]

I am bearing witness to the Living Christ - whether some hear, or refrain.

What exactly are you witnessing in favor of the small still voice’ spirit being, whom you claim as Christ? What did he tell you about himself that makes you witness in his favor? What did he command you to do?

Not 'what' dear OneJack.

Why. Why do I witness to my dear Lord?

Love.

I was loved first of course - my dear Lord gave His life for me, and my Father in heaven sent His Son to do this - all out of love.

See also (anyone who would like to see it) John 14:21,23.


Peace again to you

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #306]

I'm going to wait to respond to give you a chance to get to the rest of the post (some things you write are answered further down in the very same post).

There is no need in you waiting because I am certain we have demonstrated the falsehood of your claim.

I think you may also have overlooked this post (which has to do with walking by faith):

Tammy, you don't even know what it means to "walk by faith and not by sight." The only place in the whole of the Bible where the phrase is used, "we walk by faith and not by sight" is when Paul uses this exact phrase when addressing the Corinthians, and Paul was not instructing the Corinthians to "walk by faith and not by sight." Ergo, if Paul did not intend for the Corinthians to understand what he said to mean the Corinthians should "walk by faith and not by sight," then he certainly did not intend you, me, nor anyone else to understand it in this way.

So then, let's go through this. Even though you had no idea that it was Paul who used the phrase, "we walk by faith and not by sight," you absolutely understood it was a quote from the scripture. You did not come up with it on your own, and it was not Jesus who gave you the phrase. Rather, it was in scripture, even though you had no clue where, and you use this phrase which is only used one time in the Bible, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with communicating to us that we as Christians should walk by faith, and not by sight.

It is so abundantly clear this was in no way Paul's intention, that even an elementary student would understand this to be the case. However, you are somehow under the impression that everything in scripture must apply to you, that you cannot even realize this passage has nothing to do with talking about how Christians walk by faith and not by sight. Again, the only place in the whole of the Bible which uses the phrase, "we walk by faith and not by sight" is when Paul used it when communicating to the Corinthians, and it can be clearly demonstrated beyond any doubt that the only time this phrase is used, it had nothing to do with instructing Christians to walk by faith and not by sight, and yet, this is exactly how you use it.

**Oh, and you can test against what is written if you want to - it is just not perfect

OH??? Okay then. So then, what you are saying is, the Bible is in no way perfect, but what you hear from Jesus directly is indeed, absolutely perfect, which means we can hold up what is said in scripture to what you hear from Jesus, and if what we read in scripture does not line up with what you hear from Jesus directly, then we are to ignore what is contained in the Bible, and rather hold fast to what you hear directly from Jesus.

Tammy, what you are saying is a pretty strong order. You are holding up what you claim to hear directly from Jesus, over and above what has been written. This means, what is contained in scripture is not the word of God, and if it is not the word of God then we should discard it. According to you, what is the word of God, is what you hear from Jesus directly, and it is the only authority, because the Bible is no authority at all.

as you know, due to the erring pen of the scribes.

Can you please share with us an example of where there is an "erring pen of the scribes?" I mean, if we can certainly know there were errors on the part of the scribes, then surely you can point one of these errors out to us. My guess is, you will more than likely avoid this question, (and I do not need a direct line to Jesus to predict this) or you will look something up on the web, and only you will know if this is the case. The point is, if you are so certain there are scribal errors, then there should be no problem in you pointing these errors out on your own.

But most people need to SEE something before considering it, since most walk by sight (until learning to walk by faith.)

Again, you have no idea what it would mean to "walk by faith and not by sight," because Paul is the only one contained in the Bible who uses the phrase, and he did not include any of us when he used it. Moreover, Paul did not explain what it would mean to walk by faith and not by sight, and yet you use this phrase from the only one in the Bible who used it, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the way in which you attempt to translate it. Next, and even more importantly, we know that you got this phrase from the Bible, and it is your claim the Bible is not perfect, and how do we know that this was not one of those "scribal errors?" In other words, we all know for a fact you got this phrase from the Bible, and yet you claim the Bible is not the perfect way to know Jesus, nor what He has to say.

If you are going to test against what is written, however, consider putting Christ's words first

Oh really? So then, what you are saying is, the scribes made no errors when they penned the words of Christ? Next, why are you putting so much emphasis on what Paul had to say when he said, "we walk by faith and not by sight?" This is not something Jesus said.

since He is the Truth and the Word of God.

Tammy, you still have not responded to the fact that you would have never known, nor heard of the death, and resurrection, which atones for sin, if it had not been for the Bible. You would have never known the Gospel, if it had not been for the apostles, and the authors contained in the Bible. What you have done is to hear what is contained in the Bible from others, (because it is clear you have not studied that much on your own) and have taken their word for it that the Bible is not to be trusted, and it is a fact beyond any doubt that you have been taught by another that you can hear directly from Jesus. You did not come up with the idea that you can hear directly from Jesus on your own, and you did not get this idea by Jesus communicating this directly to you.

The point is you want to criticize those who get their doctrine from man, as though your belief that you have a direct line to Jesus was communicated to you by Jesus, when this is not the case in the least. Rather, it was communicated to you by another human being, and you bought it, "hook line and sinker." So much so, you have convinced yourself that what you hear from Jesus directly, is not on par with scripture, but rather trumps scripture.

Why would I post His words from what is written to help you see what He has said on a matter, if you cannot do the same?

You do not have the luxury of referring to what is written, since you are now on record as saying, "what is written is not perfect." This means, according to you, what is written is inferior to what you claim to hear from Jesus directly. On top of the fact that you have insisted that what is written is not perfect, you continue to cite what you insist is not perfect, in order to defend your position that what you hear directly from Jesus is far superior to what it is that is written. Here is exactly what you are saying. What you hear from Jesus directly is far superior to what has been written. Am I correct here?

[tam]

Peace again to you, and to you all,

Again, the only place in the whole of the Bible which uses the phrase, "we walk by faith and not by sight" is when Paul used it when communicating to the Corinthians, and it can be clearly demonstrated beyond any doubt that the only time this phrase is used, it had nothing to do with instructing Christians to walk by faith and not by sight, and yet, this is exactly how you use it.

From the post: viewtopic.php?p=1186823#p1186823

First - and the spirit has just reminded me of this - Paul may have been writing to the Corinthians and describing his faith (that he walks by faith and not by sight, among other things), but he ALSO tells the Corinthians to follow his example (1 Corinthians 11:1), and the author of Hebrews says to his audience to imitate the faith of those who came first (Hebrews 13:7.)

Paul describing what he does is not a brag - nor is he excluding the Corinthians from doing the same. Because he also tells them - specifically tells the same people - to imitate him, as he imitates Christ.

If Paul & Company walk by faith and not by sight, then the Corinthians are to do the SAME THING.

**Oh, and you can test against what is written if you want to - it is just not perfect

OH??? Okay then. So then, what you are saying is, the Bible is in no way perfect,

Jack, you know it is not perfect.

You said yourself:

Yep! It is reckless theology to attempt to persuade folks the Bible is inerrant, and I am on record as saying as much. - Realworldjack

viewtopic.php?p=1187001#p1187001

If the bible is not inerrant - then it is errant. It contains errors.

It is not the Word of God.

Christ Jaheshua is the Word of God. The Word of God who is alive. The Word of God who is the Truth.

Jack, it is even written in the bible that Christ is the Word of God.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God. Rev 19:13

According to you, what is the word of God, is what you hear from Jesus directly, and it is the only authority, because the Bible is no authority at all.

Not "Jesus" - see this post: viewtopic.php?p=1187301#p1187301

The Word of God is Christ Himself. He is the Living Word of God - and He speaks truth.

This is not even 'according to me' - I am just repeating the truth (truth that Christ Himself teaches), and the same thing that the disciple Christ loved also shared (John 1:14), and that John of Patmos also shared as he received the revelation from Christ. (Rev 19:13)


Written in the very book that you are looking to - the book you seem to think is the Word of God - is the truth that Christ is the Word of God.

as you know, due to the erring pen of the scribes.

Can you please share with us an example of where there is an "erring pen of the scribes?" I mean, if we can certainly know there were errors on the part of the scribes, then surely you can point one of these errors out to us. My guess is, you will more than likely avoid this question, (and I do not need a direct line to Jesus to predict this) or you will look something up on the web, and only you will know if this is the case. The point is, if you are so certain there are scribal errors, then there should be no problem in you pointing these errors out on your own.

You agree, Jack, that the bible is not inerrant. If you know the bible is not inerrant, then you know that it is instead errant. Meaning there are errors. Jeremiah the prophet shared the same thing:

“’How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of [the LORD],” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

Christ also said, "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in."


Scribes are copyists, secretaries, making copies of texts, translators copying text from one language to another, even basing some of that translation on current doctrines (even if those doctrines were not true.)

Here is an example (and this is from the NWT because that might be easier for you to see, but it happens in every translation):

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent, [Jesus] Christ."

This is not correct - and this error changes the meaning of the verse.

Because 'taking in knowledge' is not the same as KNOWING.

Eternal life means KNOWING the only true God and the One whom God sent.

Not knowing 'about'. Not searching and studying the scriptures and learning 'about'.

But knowing.

(Matt 7:22, 23)


Gonna stop here for now.


As always, may anyone who wishes be given ears to hear so as to hear the truth of this or any matter from the One who is the Truth: Christ Jaheshua. May any who wish and any who thirst also hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

So your "message" is in direct contradiction of that of JESUS who equated written scripture with the spoken word of God. For example, in Gospel of Matthew 22:31–32 Jesus is recorded as saying ...

“Have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
‘I am the God of Abraham…’”

So Jesus here is indicating people could READ what God spoke (He was quoting from the bible book of Deuteronomy).

Whatever you claim, you're just expressing your opinion ....

No, That's the verbatim statement of the Lord [to us].

There is no getting around it, Jesus encouraged his audience to READ and BELIEVE the testimony of Moses (and the Prophets) as containing what was (quote) "spoken to you by God" (end quote) and there is no record of him saying that his audience knew nothing because they had not witnessed Moses. You in contrast claim God's spoken words were never instructed to be included in scripture and that personal witnessing of events is necessary.

MY QUESTION is Why are you so obsessed with your testimony that you even resorted to challenging the testimony of Moses (who spoke face to face with God himself), don't you think that if Jesus had confidence in Moses you should too, you are not greater than Jesus are you?



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Even if the bible were all authenticated books in the first-hand degree writings of its authors, you would still not need it as far as the way to your salvation is concerned

Another contradiction ...Jesus said (quoted verbatim)

MATTHEW 4:4

But he answered: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”

Since Jesus confirmed that God's spoken words can be READ in scripture, those words written words are equally part of what we need to "live".


RECAP

- You claim we do not need authentic first hand records of the words of God recorded in scripture
- Jesus states that we need EVERY word that comes from YHWH ("every" must include those recorded by witnesses)

- Your testimony is that God never instructed his words be written in scripture
- Moses testimony is that God explicitly instructed him to record YHWHs words in scripture.

- You claim that Jesus did NOT want people to believe Moses' written testimony
- Jesus testimony is that his audience SHOULD believe the writtings of Moses

- Your message is that personally witnessing events is essential for sure belief
- Jesus message is that personally witnessing events are NOT essential for sure belief

In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”+ 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

We all have to listen only to the real and eternally living Christ JESUS for the truth about God, our salvation, and eternal life.

"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me" - JESUS CHRIST


- Your testimony is that we should ONLY listen to Jesus
- Jesus himself said we should ALSO listen to the faithful witnesses of Christ

Is it not increasingly clear that your testimony is in contrast with that of Moses and the Prophets and Jesus as witnesses by the gospel writers?

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #312]

I am not pointing at myself. I am pointing toward my Lord. Bearing witness to Him.

You are claiming to be a slave who is also claiming to have some type of privilege in being on first name basis with her Master.
Since when does a Master insist on being referred to by his slave by his name and insist that his slave tell others his name? What business does a slave have in such affairs?

Tammy - you appeal to personal experience as sufficient for yourself – e.g., Post #64
» Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:55 pm “I know His voice is not my own imagination because He says things I do not already know”, but do not elaborate on what those things are.

You shift the burden to the questioner suggesting that if someone truly wants to hear Christ, they should ask for ears to hear, implying that the lack of evidence is due to the skeptic’s unwillingness rather than your failure to provide it.

You offer vague or generic content - such as “He once read to me His prayer at the end of John” (Post #54
» Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:13 pm) which is a biblical passage already in written form, not new or testable information.

You refuse on unspecified grounds - in response to direct requests for verbatim examples, you do not comply, sometimes citing that such things are not for public display or that they would not be believed anyway.

From an evidentiary standpoint, your claims remain unfalsifiable and untestable. You offer no verifiable information that could not have come from your own knowledge or imagination, and no independent confirmation. For a skeptic or even a neutral investigator, your position reduces to: “I know because I know, and if you don’t hear Him, that’s your problem.”

[OneJack]

Peace again to you, and to you all,

[Replying to tam in post #308]

I am bearing witness to the Living Christ - whether some hear, or refrain.

What exactly are you witnessing in favor of the small still voice’ spirit being, whom you claim as Christ? What did he tell you about himself that makes you witness in his favor? What did he command you to do?

Not 'what' dear OneJack.

Why. Why do I witness to my dear Lord?

Love.

I was loved first of course - my dear Lord gave His life for me, and my Father in heaven sent His Son to do this - all out of love.

See also (anyone who would like to see it) John 14:21,23.


Peace again to you

In that case, tam, you're witnessing for the 'small still voice' spirit being out of your own volition, not that he (small still voice spirit being) sent you for a purpose, as the apostles were sent to make all nations disciples of the Lord. You are a slave to the bible in this regard, as warranted by your narrative itself.

[OneJack]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #315]

There is no getting around it, Jesus encouraged his audience to READ and BELIEVE the testimony of Moses (and the Prophets) as containing what was (quote) "spoken to you by God" (end quote) and there is no record of him saying that his audience knew nothing because they had not witnessed Moses.

Let's take the whole scenario to put everything we talk about [in this context] in its proper place.

John 5:41. I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

The Lord Jesus did not encourage his audience to READ and BELIEVE Moses’ testimony, contrary to what you opined. He was touching their conscience for not believing in Him because they were accepting glory from one another, but did not seek the glory that comes from the only God. He mentioned that their accuser, before the Father, is Moses, to whom their hopes are set. It is in this part where the Lord said that they would believe Him if they believed in Moses, who wrote about Him. The focus was on Moses himself, not on what he wrote, with respect to the belief of the Lord's audience; anything from Moses, not only his writings about Jesus, would be believed by them without doubt.

You in contrast claim God's spoken words were never instructed to be included in scripture and that personal witnessing of events is necessary.

I don't claim what you accuse me of in the first part above, verbatim; it's only your opinion. But I stand firm that personal witnessing of events is necessary when rendering judgment on any issue being discussed in this forum.

MY QUESTION is Why are you so obsessed with your testimony that you even resorted to challenging the testimony of Moses (who spoke face to face with God himself),

Am I obsessed with my testimony to Jesus? I am not in any manner! Why do I have to be obsessed with it when the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is the only one that matters in all things, material or spiritual undertakings? My testimony is nothing, but the one to whom I testify is the One who is everything.

don't you think that if Jesus had confidence in Moses you should too, you are not greater than Jesus are you?

There is truly a great difference in hearing and learning from the Pastor and Teacher in the flock of the Lord versus reading and learning from the bible; the former is absolute wisdom without doubt, and the "If" clause is not applicable, while the latter is full of uncertainties and presumptions. The biblical passages mentioned above indicated nothing, not even an iota, of the Lord's confidence in Moses, but the unbelief of the Lord's audience in Him, and their hope set in Moses as well. Again, the Lord does not encourage you to place your trust and confidence in the scriptures, where you opine that God's words can be found.

[OneJack]

Even if the bible were all authenticated books in the first-hand degree writings of its authors, you would still not need it as far as the way to your salvation is concerned

Another contradiction ...Jesus said (quoted verbatim)

MATTHEW 4:4

But he answered: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”

Since Jesus confirmed that God's spoken words can be READ in scripture, those words written words are equally part of what we need to "live".

I don't know if my English is bad or your focus is skewed. My point is 'the way to your salvation,' the details of which are not found in the Bible but in the Lord Jesus alone. You responded using Matt 4:4 where the Lord said, 'Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth. Worse, you concluded that 'Jesus confirmed that God's spoken words can be READ in scripture,' which, even if we read the passage a million times, we will not find any confirmation from God, saying, 'God's spoken words can be READ in the scriptures,' verbatim. It's your restless imagination that keeps on fabricating lies to suit your doctrine to keep your faith moving on. The Lord is talking about the word that comes out from God's mouth, meaning the words that we can hear from God if we come and call on the Almighty God when He responds [to our call].

RECAP

- You claim we do not need authentic first hand records of the words of God recorded in scripture
- Jesus states that we need EVERY word that comes from YHWH ("every" must include those recorded by witnesses)

Quote me verbatim, not your paraphrased, convoluted narrative.

- Your testimony is that God never instructed his words be written in scripture
- Moses testimony is that God explicitly instructed him to record YHWHs words in scripture.

You've not witnessed Moses, nor have you heard anything yet from God.

- You claim that Jesus did NOT want people to believe Moses' written testimony
- Jesus testimony is that his audience SHOULD believe the writtings of Moses

I have answered this above.

- Your message is that personally witnessing events is essential for sure belief
- Jesus message is that personally witnessing events are NOT essential for sure belief

Copy and paste my post in this context, so with the Lord's narrative.

In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”+ 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

We all have to listen only to the real and eternally living Christ JESUS for the truth about God, our salvation, and eternal life.

"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me" - JESUS CHRIST


- Your testimony is that we should ONLY listen to Jesus
- Jesus himself said we should ALSO listen to the faithful witnesses of Christ



Is it not increasingly clear that your testimony is in contrast with that of Moses and the Prophets and Jesus as witnesses by the gospel writers?

Wake up, those people are long gone, and what you have now is the bible alone. How can you hear from a book? Jesus is Immanuel and He is with us all, beside us all, and He's a call away from us for Him to respond to us.